88.2 KHz file playback via USB in VISTA

Sorry bad post.

Vade,

Yes Microsoft is aware of the problem and it will be available fixed in Windows 7 they said. I sent them a Proton and they figured out that the enumeration which tells the computer that it can do 44.1,48,88.2 and 96 would only pass 44.1,48 and 96 and would for some reason flag 88.2 and not allow it to be sent up the stack. Therefore no applications or drivers believe that this sample rate is available.

Thanks
Gordon

Do you know - will Windows 7 allow 176.4 as well as I believe Vista doesn't support this either?

Eloise

Thanks, Gordon. Yet another reason to upgrade to Windows 7.

Vade

Gang,

I don't know about 176.4 and actually since Windows does not support anything higher than 96K natively then what ever you are using is the problem and not Windows. Because anything with a driver should not experience the 88.2/176.4 problem.

Thanks
Gordon

Odd, my VISTA has a setting for 192 KHz. Not through USB, though. Nor for 176.4 KHz.

Vade Forrester

If you are using the Wave Out or Direct Sound Out in Vista (which both are not Bit True), than it is true that you can’t get 88.2 kHz out of Vista, but if you are setting up your playback software (for example J.River MC14) correctly, using exclusively WASAPI Mode, it will play back 88.2 absolutely correct in 24 Bit 1:1 Bit True.

Juergen

When do people get this ?!

If I may say so, you are gussing a bit instead of not *knowing*. You make the wrong combinations !
(but Juergen's post is allright I *guess* :-)

If someone does not see 88.2 (or/and 176.4) in the list, it says NOTHING, because 96 (or/and) 192 will be there, and since Vista resamples everything and all *anyway*, what is the big deal ?
One problem, in such a case you're talking "Shared Mode" and anyone using shared mode is subject to resampling (and all).

The matter of not seeing your rate in the list, is irrelevant in Exclusive Mode, because Exclusive Mode does not use that list. Btw, have a look at that property screen, and mind the wording "Shared Mode" in there.
Exclusive Mode just uses what your soundcard or DAC tells it can do, and although it is a hell of e job to correctly program it (on the player's side), there is not one single thing wrong with it. The only thing which is wrong, is that screen being there with all its unclearness, and "you" possibly appreciating that screen for Exclsuive Mode while it does nothing in that area.

Might someone think the official support of 88.2 / 176.4 in Shared Mode is important, then better first figure out how you'd ever want to use that conveniently. I mean, do you have 88.2 files only ? If that is so, set it to 88.2 (when supported), and find that even 88.2 is resampled to 88.2. But keep in mind that your 44.1 will also be resampled to 88.2, because that is what you asked for, and that is how it works. And your 192 ... they too will be resampled to 88.2 in that case.

We could well say that anyone complaining about the lack of 88.2/176.4 support, just uses the wrong "product" to start with. Careful now, because the subject is this "complaining", and if you'd understand the working, you wouldn't complain, and there's really no problem apart from not being able to play bit perfect (which Vista NEVER will under the conditions where this list is actively used).

Dizzy ? maybe, but you really should be using Exclusive Mode with a player which guarantees that because it just refuses to support Shared Mode (like Foobar/WASAPI, XXHighEnd/WASAPI).

Gordon,

Yes Microsoft is aware of the problem and it will be available fixed in Windows 7 they said.

Let me know your brand of beer in case I'll loose, but I bet they won't do that. Or not in the RTM anyway;
As you put it, they forgot to list some commonly known formats. Yeah, sure. They are completely stupid, right ? No ... this is about which formats to reample to and MS saw no reason to resample to those rates, and I doubt they will now.

MS are not stupid, they are ignorant. If you'd be asking the right person (which previously for Vista has been AmirM) the literal answer would have been "don't worry my boy, Vista's resampling is SO good, you will not be able to hear the diffference, and the additinal noise this may exhibit is under the noise of the molecules in the room; And, if you're so keen on wanting this, there's always Exclusive Mode which will not mangle with anything".
Go ask Amir to confirm this, and who even may say to be be sorry for all that ignorance since he left MS (or at least the audio department, I don't know exactly).

Therefore no applications or drivers believe that this sample rate is available.

It does not work like that ! The only thing an application can do is ask for the nearest sample rate available opposed to the asked one (keep in mind, this is Shared Mode !). This is told so by MS, the books, the help, the SDK, everything, but it does not work like that. There is no such thing as "the nearest sample rate", and unconditionally you'll receive your own setting. So, set the output to 24/44.1 (if the driver permits), ask for "nearest to 24/192" and you'll get 24/44.1 even if 24/192 is available too. After that, you can't even choose otherwise. You can only use what you set yourself in that property screen.

Anything telling otherwise is a hoax, or incompetent. Look, once we get the grasp of those settings denoting the rate to output (hence to resample to) and we understand the reason (no two rates can exist at the same time, like audio and email-ding), nothing like a closest rate *can* exist. There is one thing only, and this is your output setting.

Lastly, Vade :

Imagine not being able to play the 88.2 KHz FLAC file you download from HDTracks!

So this won't be the case for sure. The files will play always, no matter what mode. One exception would be the DAC accepting 88.2 and *not* 96. In that case Shared Mode won't go (but Exclusive Mode still does). But I don't know of DACs supporting 88.2 and not 96 ...

I hope it is clear a little ...
Peter

with an Asus Essence STX

DS output: the file will be re sampled to the frequency chosen in the windows audio panel
Wasapi output: file will be played untouched, but 88,2 and 174,6 do not work ("format unsupported by the device")
KS output: in theory the file is not modified like wasapi, and in this case also 88,2 and 174,6 work

Has someone tried the Kernel Streaming output with 88,2 files on Vista/7?

I have gone through nearly every playback software and settings and just repeated 88K2 under Vista in WASAPI and KS and it works 24 Bit 1:1 Bit True. If I could post an Audio Precision plot, you will see it.

For this test I was running Vista SP2 and for Playback I have used J.River Media Center 14.0.65 in exclusive WASAPI and with Foobar2000 v0.9.6.9, besides WASAPI also the KS Out does deliver 24 Bit 1:1 Bit true.

You can trust my AP Measurements, and for correct exclusively WASAPI, be sure that you are sending 24 Bit data path to the 24 Bit hardware, because 24 Bit on a 32 Bit data path will not work in exclusive WASAPI and I guess you will get the same error message, even if your trying to play back a 44.1 file.

Juergen

Hi Juergen,

At first I thought you may have switched some 24 and 32 bit words (haha) but I now think that I actually don't understand what you mean with "datapath" in your last post. So, what is that ? what defines (sets) it ?

Thanks,
Peter

J.River and Foobar are working internally with 32 Bit resolution (padding 24 Bit to 32 Bit), because of using Volume Control or Replay Gain, in order to loose no information when doing this (at least before D/A process). So Wave Out and Direct Sound Out do automatically truncate this 32 Bit down to 24 Bit, but not WASAPI. For WASAPI you have to match exactly the bit width of the playback software to the hardware.

Juergen

Ok, I'm afraid you are loosing me. I always try to understand and pickup something, but I can't get what you are saying, which probably springs from my own experience ?

I spit out (to 24 bit devices) 32 bits always, and only for USB devices using the CEntrance chip this doesn't work; they need 24 bits.

Does this help ? (to the sense it may be not what you experience)

Nitpicking perhaps :

J.River and Foobar are working internally with 32 Bit resolution (padding 24 Bit to 32 Bit), because of using Volume Control or Replay Gain, in order to loose no information when doing this (at least before D/A process).

Padding is padding, and indeed (as I just said) most 24 bit devices need that padding (as output from WASAPI), but this unrelated to loosing bits etc., because those last (actuallyt first) 8 will be lost anyway for a 24 bit DAC (not for a 32 bit DAC of course). So, with the reason of ReplayGain etc. you won't padd to 32 bits but to 24 and next use those 8 additional bits.
Of course you say "internally", which only tells me I shouldn't complain about what you say, but *now* I don't see how this is related to the subject of "it plays or not".

No matter how you want to say/espress this, this is correct :

For WASAPI you have to match exactly the bit width of the playback software to the hardware.

but then (and only in this context) this I do not understand :

So Wave Out and Direct Sound Out do automatically truncate this 32 Bit down to 24 Bit

which to me seems opposite of what you want to say, which besides everything is competely out of our control because DS/WaveOut can't use Exclusive Mode and *thus* are subject to resampling and all, where the "and all" also takes care of the bit transformations. IOW, you wouldn't even be able to see it at the output, because you'd never know who transformed the bits. So I guess (in this context !) you merely wanted to say something like "when DS/WaveOut is used, this is Shared Mode, and the OS (Audio Engine) takes care of the proper output; this contrary to WASAPI Exclusive where exactly nothing is done for you (the programmer) and you'd have to know precisely what the device (driver) wants to accept, or otherwise you'd receive "unsupported format" (and in detail : which just can be invalidarg as well, although the given data is completely consistent).

Lastly, for anyone thinks he can state he knows (could be me for instance :-) : I have one user that I know of, where I can't get it done to switch formats during playback, and which seems dedicated to his machine/OS setup. When I didn't support "24 bit only" there was no problem at his side, but since I do, this switching of samplerates won't work on his side anymore, while he just uses a 32 bit accepting device. So, there is also a relative aspect going on, which by itself is related to "and you are allowed one WASAPI session only", which makes resetting and re-initializing a tough job which I have working by itself, but not for that one user. Not even after an alphabet of versions I tried to make for him where all fails at his side, and all works at mine. But it worKED at his side if only 24 bit output is left out of the equation, but which it can't or otherwise it's not supported.

The above is not to show I have a problem that needs to be solved (oh, it does), but merely tries to make clear that two independend people may work in a complete different environment regarding this, no matter the API is the same in both situations.
Another example of it may be the "buffer size" and the importance of it (even up to needed registry tweaks or otherwise people just have no sound), while I never saw that problem and I actually don't even understand what this really is about. But to those "environments" it is clear that it matters.

Peter

Why do you make everything so complicated ;-) Just sit down and relax. My explanations are seen from a regular user side and all I want to say is that if you set up WASAPI or KS in Vista correctly, you will get 88.2 kHz out in 1:1 Bit True. Not more, no less. So please calm down and take it easy.

Juergen

Peter, I suspect there is some profound knowledge in all your comments; I just wish I understood them. I think what I need is a roadmap giving a step-by-step route to being able to play any sample rate music file via the USB connection. I know that's a lot of work, but it would be incredibly valuable to a newbie like me.

Vade Forrester

Hey Juergen,

I am as relaxed as can be, so I am sorry if it comes across otherwise.
Yes I know you are saying that - or how things are bit perfect. And I didn't say anything is wrong with that. Somehow though, this thread is not about that (well, as it seems to me).

If you feel offended somehow, please don't. There hasn't been anything like that in my mind.
Have a nice weekend,
Peter

I have written a step by step guide how to set up J.River with ASIO4ALL correctly in XP and J.River with WASAPI in Vista for correct Bit True playback with automatic following the Sample Rate in German language, with each over 20 screen shots. As soon it will be translated into English language and added English screen shots, it will be put online for user reference.

Juergen

Peter,

Let me know your brand of beer in case I'll loose, but I bet they won't do that. Or not in the RTM anyway;
As you put it, they forgot to list some commonly known formats. Yeah, sure. They are completely stupid, right ? No ... this is about which formats to reample to and MS saw no reason to resample to those rates, and I doubt they will now.

Actutally you are wrong... I know the guys writing the USB drivers for Microsoft. The problem had nothing to do with resampling. As you should know these are pretty simple equations now... if it was true about resampling then why would they include it for standard devices not just not USB?

Again... when I talked to Microsoft they said the enumeration was passed up by the USB Audio Driver as having say 88.2 but middle ware stopped this from being visible in the Control Panel: Sound.

On 3/20/09....

I wanted to follow up on this issue. I received the Proton from Thomas and found the same problem you did with the 88.2 format. I found the problem and filed the bug against the appropriate component owner. Hopefully this fix will get into Win7 but I cannot make a guarantee at this point in the dev cycle, though it seems it would be a very easy and safe fix to make.

Beer well since we are heading to Colorado next week... the beer of choice would be Fat Tire for dark what is that stuff 1740?? solar/wind place in Colorado??

Thanks
Gordon

Hi Vade,

This is not difficult at all, if it only were clear what the problem could be (like that from riderforever). I am the most sorry that at least I didn't spend time on your actual problem, and merely responded in general to those with different ideas about things than mine. But let's try :

From your original post it seems that you may be afraid of buying a DAC that won't do what you intend with it. This is certainly justified, because in the area of Vista I don't see many manufacturers really knowing what this is about, or how their drivers (or how they use the legacy MS ones) impact their product. Also, sometimes it really *is* rather complex, because there doesn't seem to be consensus all over, while MS left us with a half baked product. In the previous posts you just saw an example of it (or at least that was my intention). So :

As I said, you don't need to be afraid that DAC (or the files you want to play through it) won't work on Vista. So, when the DAC is 24/96 or 16/96 and you want to play 24/88.2 files, just select the 24/96 (or 16/96) setting in Vista, and use any playback software you like (but ASIO is totally unrelated *if* you would have ASIO drivers for the USB DAC, which is not likely).
By doing this, Vista will resample the file to 24/96 (or 16/96), and all just plays.

One thing : this assumes not bit perfect playback, which may not be a big deal to you, or at least that wasn't mentioned by you. Important for you might be, that no matter what format you play this way, it will never be bit perfect, unless ASIO is used (again, unlikely).

Now let's assume you *do* want bit perfect playback. And why not, because it should be better.
Outside of ASIO the only guaranteed bit perfect means is WASAPI Exclusive mode. Thus, once you use a player that does this in a guaranteed fashion, you are good as long as the player supports the bits (bit format) to output, because there is no OS or anything that will "reformat" it for you.
On a sidenote : I say "does this in a guaranteed fashion" because sure not all WASAPI players so this. Thus, when the player does not support a particular format, it may switch to Shared Mode, and again the OS will take care of the reformatting. But, then it is not bit perfect again (XMPlay is an example of such a player).

Now, depending on how special the DAC is, the player will support the format or not. Example is JRiver, which struggles with it (but which also supports 8 channels etc.), so by using JRiver you might run into a problem of the format not being supported.
I think I can fairly say that with Foobar you will be ok, weren't it that earlier today riderforever came along, but what he reports makes no sense to me without further data. I don't see any reason why 88.2 or 176.4 is not supported, unless the DAC is 16 or 24 bits /48KHz only (and many people are tricked by the difference between what a DAC can output vs. what it can input). To keep in mind on this one : only 3 or so USB DACs accept 24/96 for input (while many many will accept 16/96). So this can be a reason (and I didn't look at the specs of "Asus Essence STX", which may be even be a motherboard). Also, I can't imagine Foobar is guilty here.

There is one small culprit which is in the area of Juergen's explanations, and this is the USB DAC accepting 24 bits only. Remember, these are the DACs of which their manufacturers tell everything and all works (for which at least I blame nobody), but this is not true, and they won't even accept 16 bits. Now, just *because* the manufacturers tell they do, and also because it is completely uncommon not to accept 16 bits, you enter the leage of only a few players knowing what to do with this, PLUS you yourself must know what to do. This is : make the player output 24 bits. So, exactly like Juergen already said, with Foobar as the example, tell Foobar to output in 24 bits instead of the normal 16, and it works.

Again, but not to forget, when you are using Shared Mode - hence any non-WASAPI player - in the end including Kernel Streaming - the OS will deal with it all, and all will work always. But, not bit perfect.

To conclude this (and back to Exclusive Mode WASAPI), there is no way that I know of that the player software can tell how to address the DAC, which makes you responsible for that (sadly). Thus, for example, in XXHighEnd it is you who must set the output to 24 bits or 32 bits (or to 16 when the DAC doesn't accept more), and if you do that wrongly, the lot won't play ("unsupported format") or you may even receive static. Nothing different from Foobar.

A few golden rules :

- Apply the below only to Foobar or XXHighEnd;
- When the USB DAC does not carry the CEntrance chip, don't expect any strangenesses; when the DAC is 24/96, output to 32 and it will always work.
- When it does carry the CEntrance, and it is 24/96, set the output of the player to 24 bits. Not to 16 and not to 32.
- When it is not an USB DAC, but more than 16 bits (like 18), set the output to 32 bits. Some accept 24 bits also, which the driver screen (that dreaded one) tells you by means of its Shared Mode (!) options, no matter you are not working in Shared Mode. RME (Fireface) is an example.

Do not forget, my mentioning of those two players has a reason : anything else may work only half or differently, and is therefore unreliable at testing/judging, and note there's quite some more to it all, like playing 24/96KHz on a 16 bits DAC ! (your DAC will do it, but it is the player which must arrange for it).

I really hope this helps.
Peter

Hi Gordon,

I am under the impression that you think this problem of not recognizing 88.2/176.4 is only for USB ?

I can ensure you, it counts for everything and all ! So :

1 - 88.2/176.4 is never recognized for any soundard, DAC or USB device;
2 - No matter it is a soundcard, DAC or USB device, it *always* plays at those rate in Exclusive Mode (when officially supported of course).

Regards,
Peter

One solution suggested to enable me to play 88.2 KHz files with Foobar 2K running under VISTA is to install WASAPI. How do I do that? I downloaded the WASAPI dll file from the foobar2000 web site, but there are no instructions for installing and using it. For some of you guys, this may seem trivially obvious, but for someone getting started like me, it's baffling.

I'd greatly appreciate some help installing and using WASAPI.

Thanks, folks

Vade Forrester

Just drop the dll file in the “foobar2000/componets” folder and the next time you start foobar, it will recognize the new dll.

PS: Why don’t you try and buy J.River MC14? It loads part of the song into RAM before playing back. It sounds great.

Juergen

Juergen, I copied the WASAPI file to the foobar2K dll folder, where it was easy to set up and it worked flawlessly. I think it sounds significantly better than the standard VISTA player, probably because it's not resampling 88.2 KHz files to 44.1 KHz. After all that fuss the solution was easy.

Thanks a lot for your help. I learned a lot from your messages.

I may well get J.River, but at this stage, I'm still trying to understand how all this server stuff works. After I'm sure I like it, I'll consider investing in better software. I chose Foobar 2K because of the user interface, which makes it easy for me to play the music I want. Its folder view matches how files are stored on my computer, and it's easy to open a folder (which is an album), select all the pieces in that folder, and drag it over to make it a playlist. Well, ok, the fact that it was free influenced my choice, too.

Vade Forrester

I originally wrote asking if claims I'd heard that Vista won't play 88.2 kHz files via USB DAC were accurate. After discussion, I copied the Foobar WASAPI file into their component directory and everything seemed to work. I could play 88.2 kHz files on my Benchmark DAC1 Pre, and I was a happy camper.

Then I had a chance to try another DAC, potentially much better. When I tried playing an 88.2 kHz file via Foobar's WASAPI output (of course I selected the new DAC as the WASAPI output device), I got an error message that said "Unrecoverable playback error: Unsupported stream format: 88200 Hz/24-bit/2 channels." The manufacturer said they'd used MediaMonkey to play 88.2 kHz files, so I tried that. Sure enough, the file played, but only after MediaMonkey upsampled it to 96 kHz.

I've since upgraded my OS to Windows 7, touted as fixing the problem (it didn't) and Foobar to version 1. It still doesn't play 88.2 kHz files, and now neither does MediaMonkey. Fortunately, the HiFace driver plays the 88.2 kHz files beautifully, along with everything else up to 192 kHz, and even sounds better while doing so. Of course, the HiFace converts the USB output to S/PDIF, which has no trouble playing higher resolution files.

Still, I'm puzzled why I can't get Foobar2K to play 88.2 kHz files from its WASAPI output via USB on this particular DAC (which I'll leave unnamed). Any ideas?

Vade Forrester

Hi Vade - Don't laugh ... because it doesn't support 88.2 (176.4). Those DACs exist you know.

I must add though, that in this case it looks like only the USB connection doesn't allow it. It should be a fault of the DAC, where incoming streams/sample rates have to set the DAC chips' samplerate, and in the case of USB they forgot rates ?
Notice that a DAC can actually run at any rate (within limits and depending on hardware clocks), but it is programmable logic telling what to "set" when. Many combinations exist, if you also count in the bit depth.

Peter

Hi Vade

One question in advance: Does you new USB Dac play other sample rates viw exclusive WASAPI without this error message? If you, then you could download the program USB View and look for the discrete frequency table, if your new USB DAC does support this.

I have here just included as an example the result of USB View with a standard TI TAS1020 USB Interface with CEntrance Code:

"Audio Class Specific Audio Data Format
Audio Stream Format Type Desc.
Format Type: 1 PCM
Number Of Channels: 2 STEREO
Sub Frame Size: 3
Bit Resolution: 24
Sample Frequency Type: 0x04 (Discrete)
Sample Frequency: 44100 Hz
Sample Frequency: 48000 Hz
Sample Frequency: 88200 Hz
Sample Frequency: 96000 Hz
"

Here you can clearly see, what the USB DAC does support.

Good luck.

Juergen

Hi!

I've had the same troubles using my EMU 0404USB with Win7 / Foobar / WASAPI.
But with ALL samplerates ;) (Jürgen might be on the right track for this ...)
So I tried different Bit-depth settings (in the Foobar output settings dialog), and, voila, set to 16 Bit resolution, it works like a charm *).

So there might be different hickups with different interfaces, and with this one could soo, that "computer-audio" isn't an easy path to go.

*) = I use this setting now - just for conviniance :-)

Cheers
Harald

Harald

Why don't you use the EMU ASIO for the 0404USB? The EMU ASIO is working Bit Perfect with Win7 Foobar and for all sample rates with 24 Bit.

The limitaion to 16 Bit can't be the "end solution" and the EMU ASIO is really sounding good, and is by far sufficient for the 0404USB.

Juergen

PS: I own 2 EMU 1212M, 2 x1616M, 1 x 0404USB and 1 x 0202Tracker, and the 1616M sounds great (but doesn't switch automatically, I know)

Peter, I won't laugh because the DAC manufacturer has just confirmed that the DAC's USB won't support 88.2 kHz. Their manual said it would, so they learned something. If you send it an 88.2 kHz signal, it upsamples it to 96 kHz. At least with some software, but not Foobar2K. MediaMonkey upsampled just fine until I upgraded the OS to Windows 7.

I'm now using a HiFace by M2Tech now, which converts the USB output to S/PDIF, so it has no problem with any sampling rate up to 192 kHz. Considering it only has one day break-in, it sounds pretty doggone good to me-maybe better than the USB input. We shall see.

Vade Forrester

Hi Vade

So as I understand, you won't tell us, which modell of USB converter does not support 88.2K?

But as I told you above, the samll windows prog USB View will tell you the possibilities.

Juergen

Have you ever tested the hiFace device? Could you share the url of the USB View software? I'm not able to find it

Thanks
Fabrizio

Fabrizio

No, I haven't the HiFice, I simply no not need it.

The USB View Software (from Microsoft) you can get from a lot of places.

Here is just one example:

http://www.ftdichip.com/Resources/Utilities/usbview.zip

Good Luck

Juergen

Hi Jürgen!

I'm not longer using their ASIO driver, because Foobar everytime looses the connection after shutdown.
So I'd to re-config it every time on startup, and that was way to much hazzle to me.

After I wrote the above post, I thought about giving the "Kernel-streaming" plug-in a look, and it seems to work fine, even with 24 Bit resolution (until now). Playback of mixed samplerates is correctly reported back from the EMU software, so it seems to do just fine.

Cheers
Harald

P.S.:
The 0404USB is just an interims solution for now ...