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Originally Posted by Paul.Raulerson

Hi Forrest -

You make some good points mate.

But have you done the math? I think it makes a difference in the way I evaluate it at least. If Chris gained three thousand yearly subscribers, that would be $15,000 in income, and just about cover the hosting and ISP costs for the site. Maybe...

And each of those subscribers has potentionally, somewhere around $160 in savings or cash back from the subscription.

And a safe spammer / scammer free area to sell and buy used equipment among friends, with no fees.

And they are not nagged by ads while enjoying the site

That estimation influenced my thinking.

But even better, there are no restrictions on those who do not subscribe. Just some pretty cool extras for those who do.

YMMV.

-Paul

Paul you left off a zero. 3000*yearlyX $50= $150,000.;>]
Best,
Richard

Give the guy a break. I think Chris does a fantastic job with this site. It's a lot of blood, sweat and tears to make it all happen I'm sure. While I respect the wishes of others not to subscribe, I was only too happy to do so. I've learned a lot from the many great forum posts, articles and equipment reviews on this site and I want to see it continue. If subscribing helps bring in extra money to ensure the continuation of the site then I am all for it. I didn't sign up because of the extras, although they are appreciated. I really can't see how non-subscribers are going to suffer because of this. If you don't want to subscribe then don't, the user experience is just the same as it was before. I highly doubt that the subject matter in the subscriber only section would be duplicated somewhere else in the forum, why would it? Surely you would want the participation of a wider audience.

Colin

Yikes- and me a math major....
Yes, I did, I was thinking 300 and then I expanded it to 3000 in the comment I wrote.

-Paul

The spirit of frederick184 has a good perspective about this. Change is always the constant and changes the status quo. My belief is that what Chris created that kept us as members when subscriptions were not available represent values and outcomes that I believe Chris remains true to despite the advent of subscriptions. Perhaps it's in the realm of a Premium membership or whatever symmetry favors the positive result of it. I do not believe Chris means solely to find a method for profit only. Granted the Forum and costs must be increasing. There's just so much I would want to sell anyway.

Looking at the longer term view of what subscriptions offer and may expand to offer, I am able to turn the obstacles, if any, into opportunities. For example, this may not be a big incentive for some of us, but now that the advertising is "gone", I actually did not realize it. I felt relaxed as in room to breathe and my attention was not being pulled at from the periphery by flash ads blinking and moving about. Once I realized the ads were gone and the result on me, I was happy about that. Did they have any real impact on me before. Not really.

My heart is where it's always been: I also want to be with the general population of members as far as the forum goes. No solitary for me. I also hope the food is better in the subscription forums. I actually do not know what the subscription-oriented forum threads will be like or that it is an incentive to me. I do have some interesting items I would love to sell in a safe and secure environment under the umbrella of CA. But as I said I only have certain items and when they're gone, the incentive evaporates for the time being.

I also know I am given the opportunity to bow out if I so choose. Or take it on month to month to try it out. I chose the yearly subscription as it made the most sense to me. Especially since I dislike Paypal and only seek to deal with them as infrequently as I have to.

After Channel Downloads contacted me to set up a process for choosing my gift (as I choose to regard it), I also received an email notice from B&W re the gift a yearly subscription provides me. So the benefits are trickling in and that is a nice gift all around.

To subscribe or not to subscribe, that is the question. Hope it gets crowded.
Richard

Originally Posted by Paul.Raulerson

But even better, there are no restrictions on those who do not subscribe. Just some pretty cool extras for those who do.
-Paul

If that is indeed the case, then fine. I haven't seen the forum topics for subscribers yet, but I trust the judgement of you who have. I.e. that non-subscribers won't miss out on valuable advice. As subscribers (I'm sure I'll be a subscriber when I finished renovating our new apartment) we should be constantly aware that we don't have private forum discussions which should have been had in the open forum.

Originally Posted by Paul.Raulerson

...that would be $15,000 in income, and just about cover the hosting and ISP costs for the site

Hi Paul,

Do you have any basis for the hosting and ISP-costs? Maybe the situation in Holland is different, but anyone who runs a site like CA and would have to pay a monthly fee of US$ 1,250 is being ripped off big time... But again, that is Holland!

Peter

A buck a week to help support this great site AND get some extra benefits and people are complaining? What do we talk about on this site? $5-10k DAC's and thousand dollar interconnects, right? It's entertainment and we pay for entertainment. For my part, I'm happy to pay for it as it gives me a great deal of information and enjoyment. Good for Chris. He should have done this a long time ago.

Jeff

Originally Posted by jivers

A buck a week to help support this great site AND get some extra benefits and people are complaining? What do we talk about on this site? $5-10k DAC's and thousand dollar interconnects, right? It's entertainment and we pay for entertainment. For my part, I'm happy to pay for it as it gives me a great deal of information and enjoyment. Good for Chris. He should have done this a long time ago.

Jeff

Out of the mouth of Babes (referring to your relatively few posts but meant to be humorous) ;>]. Ah clarity!
Best,
Richard

Another member who is not convinced.
When I started looking at Computer Audio possibilities a couple of years ago I trawled the net to learn the basics before posing some questions here. The answers I got were valuable and very helpful. Computer Audiophile became my first stop for further education in this area. I'm probably now sufficiently well informed to appreciate the value of the site and hence pay a subscription but sure as eggs is eggs Computer Audiophile will no longer be a prime route for newbies to get into the subject, which is a sad loss.
David

Originally Posted by DavidL

Another member who is not convinced.
When I started looking at Computer Audio possibilities a couple of years ago I trawled the net to learn the basics before posing some questions here. The answers I got were valuable and very helpful. Computer Audiophile became my first stop for further education in this area. I'm probably now sufficiently well informed to appreciate the value of the site and hence pay a subscription but sure as eggs is eggs Computer Audiophile will no longer be a prime route for newbies to get into the subject, which is a sad loss.
David

How do you mean that statement? And what persuades you that newbies will not be able to use CA as you did?
Best,
Richard

Well, Hostgator has a nice integrated server for $374/month, with an enormous amount of bandwidth (10TB), so perhaps I am overestimating. On the other paw, I spend more like $1500/month for a rack with one 30amp power circuit and one 4mbs Ethernet drop. But that fits out business needs much much better.

-Paul

Richard
I was referring to the subscriber-only fora. What was most valuable to me at the start was collecting the views of experienced members on particular pieces of kit (performance, reliability etc) and the identification of items I'd not previously considered. My understanding is that manufacturer-specific discussions of this type will not all be accessible to non-subscribers.
David

Originally Posted by DavidL

Another member who is not convinced.
When I started looking at Computer Audio possibilities a couple of years ago I trawled the net to learn the basics before posing some questions here. The answers I got were valuable and very helpful. Computer Audiophile became my first stop for further education in this area. I'm probably now sufficiently well informed to appreciate the value of the site and hence pay a subscription but sure as eggs is eggs Computer Audiophile will no longer be a prime route for newbies to get into the subject, which is a sad loss.
David

Huh - I am at a total loss why you would think that, as nothing has been taken away, only more stuff added. Spend the $5 for a month's subscription, have a look, and then decide. That's the price of a cup of coffee these days, and I really think you will find your apprehensions are unfounded.

Yours,
-Paul

I would be happy to see the "Subscriber" tag go, since I do think it creates an artificial "elite" class of members.I can see how it might have some marketing value in terms of attracting additional subscribers, but it just seems a bit anti-democratic to me.

Beyond that, though, I think the subscriptions make sense. The "freemium" model is pretty well accepted at this point, and I hope it will work out well for Chris. I'd guess that it will, at the very least, allow him to make solid base income projections, which should ultimately benefit all CA participants. The initial "subscribers only" topics suggest that non-subscribers won't be missing much in terms of "core" content (except, of course, for the one forum where all the subscribers get to badmouth all the non-subscribers). (That's a joke, lest you have any doubts.) We'll just have to see how the buy/sell stuff works out -- way too early to tell. I'm sure Chris won't be averse to tweaking things to make them better for all participants.

For me, there are three good reasons to subscribe: First is that I'm happy to surrender some funds in exchange for all the educational and entertainment value I derive from CA. Second, the subscriber discounts are quite attractive -- I'm pretty sure that just between Channel Classics, Blue Coast, and HDT, I can recoup the cost of my first year's subscription ... and that's on stuff I would have purchased anyway. I confess to being somewhat baffled by the claims that the discounts are US-centric (though I wouldn't turn up my nose at a subscriber discount from Qobuz). Finally, I'm happy to contribute to the Connaker College Fund.

--David

At first I was excited by the Buy/Sell opportunity but after the points made about reaching a limited subscribed audience I would have to pass. I would be much more inclined to pay a fee to have the entire forum be able to access the things I have to offer for sale.

Originally Posted by DavidL

Richard
I was referring to the subscriber-only fora. What was most valuable to me at the start was collecting the views of experienced members on particular pieces of kit (performance, reliability etc) and the identification of items I'd not previously considered. My understanding is that manufacturer-specific discussions of this type will not all be accessible to non-subscribers.
David

Honestly, DavidL, I do not see that happening. It does not make sense (not you). I am referring to what Chris created that addressed your need(s). I do not pretend to speak for Chris. The Forum that Chris created that pulled you, me, and thousands in is not about to disappear. The contributors you value and the outcomes you seek are not about to disappear because a Subscriber status has been implemented. Proof? I am responding to you at the moment and I am already a Subscriber. What prevents you and others from exchanges you desire?

I can appreciate that not having access to threads only intended for Subscribers may cause some ill-ease about what might be available to some but not to the general population. The cure is to present what you need and what others seek and wait for responses. In that regard nothing will change.

I suspect what is reasonable to regard about a Subscriber section with content that is prospectively not unavailable to you (which only costs a dollar a week) is content not available to you because you choose not to avail yourself of a status that is so reasonable in cost as to turn the perspective back to you, i.e., what would prevent you from subscribing if only for a month to assess if it is worth the cost. Is it possible that the Subscriber section is a portal for exchanges that avoids unwanted contributions which only frustrate the very discussions you value when certain individuals contribute that which only deters the progress, clarity and advancement of understanding and evolution of computer audio?

I do not mean to sound preaching or lofty. Merely to present a perspective that challenges many perspectives which seem to find the advent of a subscription as a negative. I am signaling what I find are positives in the spirit of what I believe has fostered the subscriber implementation. Your call.
Best,
Richard

I think the buy/sell sub would be more vibrant if anyone could view the items for sale, not just members. If a buyer want to make an offer, they could then sign up for membership. If the buy/sell sub is members only for potential buyers, then the majority of potential customers will be folks also trying to sell gear. Just my 2 cents. :-)

Chris,

With all due respect... A couple of questions / remarks:

- An add-free environment... I am not sure if anyone still is really bothered with adds anymore. Practically every site is filled with those, and with most people using fast internet connections, it will not really slow down browsing these days. Perhaps for mobile devices?

- What would be the purpose of a subscriber-only topic? Why would anyone want to start one? It will just limit the amount of responses one would get. The fact that people are willing to spend money on a subscription does not mean quality will go up for these topics. However, it might filter (to some extent) input from "objectivists".

- Buy and sell could be a good thing, but I would expand the buying part to non-subscribers as well.

- I suspect discounts on hard- and software is the most appealing feature. As a suggestion I can give to offer "group-buys" for popular products. I have seen some pretty good results of that, resulting in very good prices if interest is high enough. Could be quite a bit of work though!


Just my R$ 0,02

Regards,
Peter

My $.02 is this:
I think Chris runs a great site, and if he needs some addtl funding I am more than willing to donate. Lord knows it has helped me save time, money and lots of trial/error. And buying into a "preferred" category to get subsidized HDtracks deals, or 10 free classified postings, etc is a nice option.

However, the idea of ad-free browsing, subscription-only forum threads and subscription-only classifieds has no appeal...for one, I do not want to limit any information dissemination to a subset of posters....heck, the whole CA thing is still in its infancy, and some of the best ideas still come from "outside the box". and two, i want my ads to be seen and available to EVERYONE...it's table stakes for selling online. Typically I'd sell my first or second generation CA stuff, and expect newer struggling CA viewers, or even guest passersby, to be my audience, not the well-heeled usual suspect CA veterans (who are probably the most likely subscriber candidates).

I'm ready to spend $50 on Chris's business, but would much rather see it used another way...

Hi Guys - Maybe taking a look at what's actually in the CA Subscribers forum will ease some of your concerns. I've included a screenshot of the topics below. I'm no fool. I see the value in keeping the core discussions open to everyone. I would never paywall off core content. I've also studied countless sites before implementing the Subscriptions. One I really like is ArsTechnica.com. I took the best of the Ars subscription model and added a lot to it for CA.

There are several ways to implement a Buy/Sell forum. Sites like FredMiranda do a great job by allowing everyone to view items for sale but only allow subscribers to sell items. This model is actually my plan. I'm just working out the details for who can post, respond, sell, buy, with read-only or post privileges etc... As a seller I would want as many eyes on my items as possible. In the near future the Buy/Sell forum will be adjusted, but only Subscribers will be able to sell.