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Originally Posted by wdw

Dear Chris,

Just to be a difficult but it must be said....it is not 100% free...in fact it is 5$ a month.

WDW

Sorry Chris, but I was thinking the same thing as wdw. Buy/Sell forum use is included in the monthly subscriber fee, is more accurate. You got to stay on your toes on the ole' internet. There's a critic around every corner waitin' to pounce.

Sorry Chris, I won't be subscribing. This goes totally against the main reason I'm here - to share my experiences and learn from the experiences of others. The CA ads I understand and put up with (I've never clicked on one and cannot imagine ever doing so), but restricted forums and an 'elite' CA group? No sorry, not for me.

Mani.

Originally Posted by crisnee

The only real reason I can see to subscribe is for the buy/sell function. Unfortunately, I think there will be few subscribers which will render the function fairly useless. An idea that might make buy/sell more attractive is to let anyone buy, but only subscribers sell.

-Chris

Chris (crisnee) makes a good point and is exactly what I was thinking after reading the article. It's difficult enough to sell a piece when buying is open to the world, and the number of subscribed buyers will likely be very small, comparatively. On the other hand, maybe Chris's intentions for the buy/sell section is just to add a small bonus feature for members, as opposed to having to deal with a full fledged buy/sell site that competes with Ebay, or Agon. I imagine such a buy/sell site could be a separate full time job, and potential head-ache all it's own.

An idea that might make buy/sell more attractive is to let anyone buy, but only subscribers sell.

This idea came to me immediately as well. However, one must be aware of potential riffraff allure in any product exchange market. Chris seems to be very conscious of this and maybe some of his decisions regarding the buy/sell forum are meant to maintain site safety and harmony. I'm all for any any type of action aimed at keeping the site safe and scam free, even if that means fewer features, etc.

I imagine keeping spam, gorilla marketers, riffraff, off the site is the toughest part of running this site for Chris. Even with all his effort and safeguards some still gets through. Dealing with that aspect of running the site would drive me insane.

Originally Posted by crisnee

The only real reason I can see to subscribe is for the buy/sell function. Unfortunately, I think there will be few subscribers which will render the function fairly useless. An idea that might make buy/sell more attractive is to let anyone buy, but only subscribers sell.

-Chris

Chris (crisnee) makes a good point and is exactly what I was thinking after reading the article. It's difficult enough to sell a piece when buying is open to the world, and the number of subscribed buyers will likely be very small, comparatively. On the other hand, maybe Chris's intentions for the buy/sell section is just to add a small bonus feature for members, as opposed to having to deal with a full fledged buy/sell site that competes with Ebay, or Agon. I imagine such a buy/sell site could be a separate full time job, and potential head-ache all it's own.

An idea that might make buy/sell more attractive is to let anyone buy, but only subscribers sell.

This idea came to me immediately as well. However, one must be aware of potential riffraff allure in any product exchange market. Chris seems to be very conscious of this and maybe some of his decisions regarding the buy/sell forum are meant to maintain site safety and harmony. I'm all for any any type of action aimed at keeping the site safe and scam free, even if that means fewer features, etc.

I imagine keeping spam, gorilla marketers, riffraff, off the site is the toughest part of running this site for Chris. Even with all his effort and safeguards some still gets through. Dealing with that aspect of running the site would drive me insane.

The only real reason I can see to subscribe is for the buy/sell function. Unfortunately, I think there will be few subscribers which will render the function fairly useless. An idea that might make buy/sell more attractive is to let anyone buy, but only subscribers sell.

Personally, some of the discounts look quite attractive. As for buy/sell, I would guess Chris C considered the model you mention (subscribers can sell, everyone can buy) and decided at least for now to try the more restrictive model (only subscribers can buy/sell). I actually have a couple of things I was contemplating putting out on Audiogon that I'll give a whirl here first. We'll see what happens....

Originally Posted by manisandher

Sorry Chris, I won't be subscribing. This goes totally against the main reason I'm here - to share my experiences and learn from the experiences of others. The CA ads I understand and put up with (I've never clicked on one and cannot imagine ever doing so), but restricted forums and an 'elite' CA group? No sorry, not for me.

Mani.

Mani, I definitely empathize. I decided to subscribe after initial misgivings along the lines you describe.

The restricted forums were something that concerned me as well. But when I saw the subjects of the subscriber-only forums, it seemed to me that Chris had chosen wisely in that regard. If Chris wants to say what the subscriber forum topics are (other than buy/sell equipment, which he's already mentioned), that's up to him; but I will say it seems unlikely to me that any subscriber threads will duplicate subject matter in the threads open to all comers.

Originally Posted by manisandher

Sorry Chris, I won't be subscribing. This goes totally against the main reason I'm here - to share my experiences and learn from the experiences of others. The CA ads I understand and put up with (I've never clicked on one and cannot imagine ever doing so), but restricted forums and an 'elite' CA group? No sorry, not for me.

Mani.

Hi Mani- I certainly can not speak for Chris, but I look at it this way. Nobody should be clicking on ads if they don't want to. However, ad click-through revenue was, so far as I know, the only revenue generating activity on the site. No click throughs, no money to pay the ISP, lab costs for testing, defray tavel costs, etc. That gets expensive, quickly.

I could click through a few dozen times per month to support the site, or just put out a wee bit of money and enjoy the site sans ads. The ads being gone makes the site lightening fast for me. Subsecond refreshes in some cases, even on an iPad.

I don't see subscriptions creating any kind of elite or anything like that. Just a convienent way to support the site, and with a few side benefits - like potentionally grabbing some significant extra music - effectively recoouping the cost of the subscription. (Check out the bonus section...)

In any case, I see your point and am glad that nothing is changing that will prevent me from reading your great postings. One of these days, you might push me over the edge into sending Peter some money for one of his DACs. Well, I might have to get over a distrust of Windows first, but... miracles do happen!

Paul

Not sure how/why I double posted. Sorry bout that.

Maybe a better buy/sell would be to only allow those with a certain number of (meaningful) posts/contributions as a member. I think it becomes pretty clear over time and a few discussion posts whether a member is a sincere, legitimate, individual with a true interest in all things computer audio, or not. But then again, I'm sure Chris has put much more thought into the buy/sell forum than my 2 minutes, and I'm sure he has contemplated all options.

I must say I agree with Chris (crisnee)... Either the forum is free, or you want people to pay to be part of your club. Perhaps I'm being pessimistic. But saying "special subscribers forums" sounds a bad idea. Personally I would likely wander elsewhere if I felt I was excluded from some forums on a "free" website.

Advert free browsing; ability to place "For Sale adverts" (but with everyone able to view to buy) and the special offers do make sense ... The rest perhaps not (to me).

Eloise

Originally Posted by The Computer Audiophile

Hi Richard - As the first CA product for sale the mesh hat is a reasonably priced way for me to start offering products. To get a decent price on them I had to order 144. The same quantity in a the non-mesh hat, that is designed but not in production, would have cost me far more than I could spend. I wasn't sure if anyone was even interested in a hat. I actually like the mesh hat quite a bit. I wear it all the time. Introducing a product I don't prefer is the way I had to do it, but there was no way I would introduce a product I didn't like. I also wouldn't offer the mesh hat knowing that a non-mesh version would be available soon. I hate when manufacturers do things like this and I won't participate in that business. The non-mesh version is designed but isn't on the top of my list to get produced just yet. I would rather launch the CA shirts and sweatshirts before the non-mesh hat, but the investment is substantially more as the quality of shirt and sweatshirt are excellent.

As you know there's only so much time in the day and so much capital to work with.

Thank you for helping me appreciate what's involved initiating a product (line) for CA.

I also thank you for the email from Jared Sacks of Channel Downloads informing me as a new member of CA subscriptions I am entitled to a free download in any resolution and in any format including DSD. That's a lovely gesture in connection with new membership and appreciated. Good luck with your ambitious business endeavors. I can also appreciate what it takes to make it happen in terms of hours and sweat.
Best,
Richard

I know that to some this may sound unbelievable and or it is unintional or it is a bug, or ?

But do we know that when we are logged in to the site - and no I don't have a subscription - only the first 18 or 19 posts show ? (there are 31 now). I can't imagine that this is the first proof of that I'm not allowed to see everything anymore. But hey, when not logged in all shows.
At least IE8 and Chrome both show this behavior.

Btw notice that the header of the topic says "18 comments" as well. Not so at the main page though, where it says 31.

I hope this was a useful contribution.
And that it was off topic. Haha.

Peter

Hi Chris,

I have been around for about a year and a half now and I appreciate it very much.

Though I know that it must demand a lot to get a forum going in the right direction, plus the fact that I respect what you are offering us, I would have preferred another way to contribute - a donation would have been fine (I can only express this for me, not for others). When I use a software (a freeware to be precise), if I feel it useful for me, I give a donation to show my appreciation.

"To each its own" they say. I just hope that this site will stay as successful as it has been up to now. I have learned a lot of things, taken what I felt I needed to be happy and I hope I have helped some people whenever I felt I could do.

I just wish you the best

Alain

I am probably with manisandher on this one. Will think over it a little, plus the majority of the 'added value' is only relevant to US users. Yes Naim is there (yes I am UK based!) but frankly I have never been a bit fan of their label.

Having said that, Chris has to monetize his members somehow so I wish him good luck; all good things must come to end

Originally Posted by blueixus

I am probably with manisandher on this one. Will think over it a little, plus the majority of the 'added value' is only relevant to US users. Yes Naim is there (yes I am UK based!) but frankly I have never been a bit fan of their label.

Having said that, Chris has to monetize his members somehow so I wish him good luck; all good things must come to end

I am with blueixux, manisandher and audioelf. A year ago or more when asked about a buy/sell section, the answer was a resounding "no". Now, not only is there a "CA" cap, one needs to be a paid "member" to use a feature that was panned a year ago plus access additional fora. To add to this, there is a "subscriber" tag by ones name. Sort of seems like a "good 'ole boys" club to me, all the while the quality of content has degraded as the S/N ratio increased. What's next I have to wonder?

And the free content seems like a back door deal, and the beginnings of CA being no different than an audio rag. How can impartiality remain when there are such entanglements?

Originally Posted by PeterSt

I know that to some this may sound unbelievable and or it is unintional or it is a bug, or ?

But do we know that when we are logged in to the site - and no I don't have a subscription - only the first 18 or 19 posts show ? (there are 31 now). I can't imagine that this is the first proof of that I'm not allowed to see everything anymore. But hey, when not logged in all shows.
At least IE8 and Chrome both show this behavior.

Btw notice that the header of the topic says "18 comments" as well. Not so at the main page though, where it says 31.

I hope this was a useful contribution.
And that it was off topic. Haha.

Peter

Tried refreshing and/or dumping the cache? Still the same?

Hi Forrest -

You make some good points mate.

But have you done the math? I think it makes a difference in the way I evaluate it at least. If Chris gained three thousand yearly subscribers, that would be $15,000 in income, and just about cover the hosting and ISP costs for the site. Maybe...

And each of those subscribers has potentionally, somewhere around $160 in savings or cash back from the subscription.

And a safe spammer / scammer free area to sell and buy used equipment among friends, with no fees.

And they are not nagged by ads while enjoying the site

That estimation influenced my thinking.

But even better, there are no restrictions on those who do not subscribe. Just some pretty cool extras for those who do.

YMMV.

-Paul

I also have multiple issues with these stripped down mini forums underneath featured articles. The latest posts do not show up, I can tell cause they ARE visible when I click quote reply on the last posting, I will then see the latest posts on that page which otherwise are not visible.

Back to the topic, paid subscription also does not sit well with me (reminds me of the site AudioAficionado).

If money is needed to support this site I am sure MANY will be willing to donate to help cover the costs.

Originally Posted by Paul.Raulerson

Hi Forrest -

You make some good points mate.

But have you done the math? I think it makes a difference in the way I evaluate it at least. If Chris gained three thousand yearly subscribers, that would be $15,000 in income, and just about cover the hosting and ISP costs for the site. Maybe...

And each of those subscribers has potentionally, somewhere around $160 in savings or cash back from the subscription.

And a safe spammer / scammer free area to sell and buy used equipment among friends, with no fees.

And they are not nagged by ads while enjoying the site

That estimation influenced my thinking.

But even better, there are no restrictions on those who do not subscribe. Just some pretty cool extras for those who do.

YMMV.

-Paul

My point was not so much Chris making money, but that making arrangements for "subscriber deals" is a slippery slope in the impartiality department. Especially considering something like HDTracks, whom have had such a poor performance in certain aspects. Furthermore, the announcement that one is a subscriber seems to create a needless, yet potentially destructive division.

Originally Posted by 4est

My point was not so much Chris making money, but that making arrangements for "subscriber deals" is a slippery slope in the impartiality department. Especially considering something like HDTracks, whom have had such a poor performance in certain aspects. Furthermore, the announcement that one is a subscriber seems to create a needless, yet potentially destructive division.

You know, I didn't even notice that subscriber tag? Yeah, that might be a bit divisive in some ways, but then again, perhaps not. I am rather fond of this place, and would like it to continue. I also understand why Chris might be reluctant to take donations, as this is a business to him, and there could easily be tax ramifications and so on.

Myself, I think he struck a good compromise, and this opens a lot of opportunities that were not possible before.

-Paul