Audiophile Reference Music Server For A Song
It all started with a little post via the Computer Audiophile Twitter page. "Working on arguably the best computer based audio solution available. It is so inexpensive you won't believe it!" Since that original hint was dropped I've received countless emails and posts through the CA forum asking about this system. I've delayed publishing an article about this very inexpensive system because I wanted to be absolutely certain it could perform with the best systems available. Right now I am absolutely certain this system is capable of matching or exceeding the sound quality from any system I've ever heard, hard disk or compact disc based. The time has come to reveal the music server that's capable of reference quality sound for less than $1,040.
Setting Expectations
Based on emails and conversations with readers I've concluded that the expectations of readers are all over the board. Some are expecting a complete system from power cable to listening chair yet others have zero expectations and don't get what the fuss is all about. Fortunately the vast majority of readers are somewhere in the middle of these two extremes. The system I am about to describe is nothing new to many people and there are no secrets here. Why am I so enthusiastic about this whole thing? Because the vast majority of readers don't know where to start with when it comes to integrating a music server in to their high-end system. Many audiophiles are already hesitant enough about getting into the music server game. When they see the price tag of a Mac Pro with 10 GB of RAM and eight CPU cores these people cry foul because computer based audio is supposed to be so much cheaper than traditional high-end components. Another factor in my enthusiasm is the world economy. It's terrible right now and people are looking for the best value they can find. Value is a relative concept, but I think we can all agree this system is a tremendous value. Possibly the most exciting part of this project is that a true reference quality source is now within the grasp of "everyday" audiophiles.
The Beginning
I've known about the possibility of obtaining fabulous sound from a Windows XP based music server for a long time. Many people have been doing this for several years. Until now I was not convinced this was a viable path. The XP operating system is on life support and using a legacy driver and firmware for the Lynx hardware goes against my grain. Sure the legacy driver and firmware may sound better but what happens when an upgrade is required because of some incompatibility with the operating system or a music playback application? What happens when Windows XP cannot be found through any legal channels? What about the bit perfect playback issues and bypassing the KMixer? What about blowing tweeters? My list of reasons for not supporting this platform go on and on. The fact that Mac OS X & iTunes is bit perfect right out of th box does not help Windows XP one bit. With all these strikes against a Windows based system it was hard to keep an open mind. I even ran XP on my MacBook Pro and Mac Pro machines in an effort to get the best sound quality out of Windows just like some colleagues had been doing for quite some time. It wasn't until a friend of mine in Northern California recently went through some very thorough listening tests, with some of the most resolving components available today, that I started to take XP seriously. This friend of mine listened to Windows and Mac based systems and concluded his Windows XP music server was the most resolving. Not only did this friend test each system, he had several very respected mastering engineers and component designers listen to each system. In fact one person who listened to these systems was a member of the band who actually played some of the music! So, I decided to put together an XP based music server that is readily available for purchase and is incredibly cheap by high-end audio standards. Before I could tell the world about such a great system I had to be absolutely sure that I agreed with my friend's findings.
The System
Dell Inspiron 530 $279
Lynx AES16 card $700
Lynx HD26 cable $60
MediaMonkey $0
Total $1,039
The Details
Dell Inspiron 530 - This Dell 530 is a very inexpensive system from a very reputable manufacturer. To get this low price you must order it with Windows Vista and use a copy of Windows XP that you already own. Otherwise Dell will charge $150 extra to pre-install Windows XP. This is one way to keep the price down. Another way is to use an existing computer you already have. If I were building a music server from scratch I would never have thought to use the components in this Dell 530. I've never been a fan of the Celeron processor and building a system around this chipset made me cringe in the past. Fortunately I took the chance and it paid off big time. The Dell 530 is a little larger than the 530s model because it can hold a full height PCI & PCIe card. The 530s is smaller and more attractive, but the half height PCI slot was a showstopper for me. Spec-wise this computer has nothing going for it. Slow memory, 320 GB hard drive, and a 10/100 Gb network card shouldn't impress anyone. The 530 is a noisier than my Mac Pro. This is likely the biggest drawback to the system. In my listening room the 530 sits in a breathable cabinet so the noise is dampened very well. It's certainly not a space shuttle gaming machine in terms of noise, but I know many audiophiles have dead silent listening rooms and may take offense to the noise from this Dell. I chose Windows XP as the operating system because, I hate to say this, it's proven to work as a reference music server operating system pretty well. A dedicated music server can operate well with XP and most Windows XP problems have been documented on the Internet numerous times. I installed Service Pack 3 and Internet Explorer 7, but stopped there. I didn't install any of the extras and removed several pieces of software that are automatically installed as part of Windows. You wouldn't install a telephone line on your CD transport, so I uninstalled Outlook Express and many items of similar uselessness. I also tweaked the operating system as far as I deemed necessary. I did all the usual things like empty the startup folders, browsing through MSConfig removing unneeded programs, and setting Windows up for best performance not the best graphical experience. I also painstakingly went through every service and determined whether or not it should start automatically, manually, or be disabled entirely. After configuring the Dell 530 BIOS and Windows XP operating system the computer now boots in about thirty seconds. That's pretty good for a Windows machine.
Here is a link to the Dell page for the Inspiron 530. The base configuration is all you need! Dell Inspiron 530
Lynx Studio AES16 PCI card & Breakout Cable - As long as my colleagues have been using Windows XP on their music servers they have been talking up the benefits of the Lynx AES16 card with legacy firmware and legacy drivers. This is another one of those things I had to see hear to believe. I can't think of another situation where I would select the PCI version of a component when a PCI Express version is available. Longevity, more speed, "better" engineering etc... usually favor the PCI Express version of a card. Not in this case. It has gone around pro audio circles for a little while now that the PCI version of the Lynx AES16 card "better." Since I already have the PCI Express AES16e version and the word on the street favored the PCI AES16 version I selected the PCI version. Not only is the PCI version of the Lynx card "better" than the PCIe version, the legacy firmware and legacy drivers are better. As I said earlier, I was hesitant and skeptical about this card and configuration. Keeping on my theme of readily available components and computers I selected the standard Lynx breakout cable (CBL-AES1604 Eight-channel HD26 to XLR AES I/O Cable for AES16). I do prefer my custom HD26 to XLR AES cable as it removes the unneeded "antennae" from the equation but decided against its inclusion as part of this system because it's not readily available yet. The firmware version I used with the AES16 card is Rev 22. I had to run an easy program that automatically downgraded the firmware from the current version to Rev 22. The driver I installed is the LynxTWO Version 1.30 Build 057g. I certainly have not listened to all the available versions of firmware and drivers for this card, but I trust highly respected friends and those with much more experience using this card. If I do find a better version I will be the first to let the CA readers know.
Links to AES16 card and Lynx Cable
MediaMonkey - MediaMonkey is my playback application of choice on Windows XP. Some people have identified sound quality "issues" with MediaMonkey, but I have yet to find a better sounding consumer friendly application. The MediaMonkey interface is pretty good, but has its pitfalls. I will say its much more usable than Foobar2000, but there are some newer Foobar2000 skins that many readers find very impressive. I installed the in_wave.dll add-on for AIFF support in MediaMonkey. The Output Plugin I use is wave_out.dll. This plugin allows simple selection of the Lynx AES card and an option to disable the MediaMonkey volume control. Configuration is pretty simple, but certainly not as easy as iTunes on a Mac in my opinion. My favorite part of MediaMonkey is the auto-sample rate recognition. This allows the listener to click between 16/44.1, 24/88.2, 24/176.4, and 24/192 files without changing anything or closing the application. Something Mac users are not accustomed to. It is really pleasant to switch between all these sample rates and still get bit perfect output every time. I did try several other playback applications including Winamp and JRiver Media Center but these applications struggled with the Reference Recordings HRx 24/176.4 WAV files. When one application can't playback the best recordings I've ever heard and another has trouble at all it's an easy decision to make. MediaMonkey wins hands down. I am aware of many fans of the other applications and many of them don't like the current selection of higher resolution music. For now there is nothing pushing them to another application. There are also pro audio based applications like WaveLab and Samplitude that some people prefer over any consumer based application. These apps may offer wonderful sound, but have no library management. The system I put together for this article is an all around reference quality system with library management and readily available components.
Link to MediaMonkey
Conclusions
In anticipation of the first reader question I will attempt to proactively provide an answer. Am I switching from Mac to Windows XP? Not entirely. The user interface of iTunes and OS X, the simplicity and stability of the Apple platform, and to be honest the sound quality is fabulous. Not to mention my Mac systems may save me from blowing my tweeters. The same cannot be said for some MediaMonkey and Windows systems. Lately I've been all about my Dell Windows XP PC, Lynx AES16 card and MediaMonkey. I think the system has greater resolution than my current Mac music servers using OS X and iTunes. There is a certain "rightness" to the sound of this Dell based system. Drum attacks sound sharp and not rolled into, while the extension on the high notes is stupendous and incredibly resolving. But, the Mac does have a sound that's very pleasing and isn't fatiguing one bit. I think for many readers the choice between Mac or Windows in terms of sound quality will be based on personal preference. Some people like tubes while others like solid state. Some like electrostatics while others prefer horns. Now we can add an another one to the mix, some like OS X while others like Windows XP. Both the Mac OS X and Windows XP based systems are reference quality in my opinion. I would put either of these systems up against a physical transport / CD player any day of the week. Plus, the cost of this system is less than $1,040! Readers can use the DAC of their choice as long as it has an AES input. As you can probably guess I used my Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC for most of my listening sessions with the Dell based system. Combind the Alpha DAC and this system are right around $6,000. This combination can bypass a preamp and directly drive your amplifier(s). Many readers should be adding up the dolar savings in their heads right now. No preamp, no extra set of cables etc...
As I said earlier, this system comprised of a Dell 530, Lynx AES16, Windows XP, and MediaMonkey is nothing new and is no secret formula. I personally know readers currently using very similar systems. What has me so excited is the cheap cost and high availability of the components I've put together in this article. Every single Computer Audiophile reader can now have a audiophile reference quality music server, that's as good or better than as anything else, for less than $1,040.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Comments
Posts: 338
Mac OS X?
Chris, did you try the AES 16 running OS X?
just curious,
clay
Posts: 5
Interesting setup. I'd be
Interesting setup. I'd be curious how it stands up to what many seem to think is a leading $1K bang-for-buck solution of:
Apple or PowerMax sold refurbished Mac mini ($500)
Apogee Duet ($500)
Course both setups require some sort of display.
May be a fun battle?
MacBook → Apogee Duet → Stax SRM-007t → Stax Lambda Sigs / Lambda Pros
L Parasound 1100 HD #1 → RudiStor NX02 Sistema → Sennheiser HD580 / Orthodome MKII
Airport Express → 1100 HD #2 → Single Power Extreme Plat → Sennheiser HD580 / Audio-Technica W1000
"Science fiction tends to be philosophy for stupid people." - Chuck Klosterman
Posts: 65
Hi Chris, this is probably a
Hi Chris, this is probably a question you get a lot, but I cannot think of an answer myself and I haven't read one either... so here goes:
As far as I know there are two dimensions to music in the digital realm, if you consider a single channel: amplitude and timing.
If you logically combine the above, it says "such music servers cannot differ sonically".
Which leaves me with the question: how can there be consistently perceived sound differences between different bit-perfect sources, such as the music server you present here and other servers, when you use a good DAC that controls timing? Do you have an explanation? Is my understanding/assumption flawed?
As you always say, in the end I just let my ears decide, but at some level I'm troubled if I feel that I am missing some fundamental understanding. Hope you can shed some light onto this.
Thx, VincentH
VincentH, Pro Audio and Headphone enthousiast. Currently using Vista + Foobar + WASAPI bitperfect --> FireWire --> RME FireFace 400 DAC --> Vovox unshielded balanced XLR interconnects --> Focal Twin 6Be active monitors + Focal Sub6 active sub; Grado RA 1 + Grado RS 1; Etymotic ER-4P.
Posts: 69
....following on from Vincent....
Well put Vincent. This has also troubled me....just to follow on, if someone else on this forum has managed to get 24/192 out of the optical out of a MacPro (running Vista)...why would this be any worse in sound quality than 24/192 out of firewire (say into the "Amarra") solution.?
Actually come to think of it as long as the output is "clocked" by a really good clock to minimize jitter, it shouldn't matter which computer/soundcard/output is used.
Then ease of use of the software becomes paramount......
Posts: 89
Well... if it sounds as good
Well... if it sounds as good as you say... I've got some expensive junk to sell! Guess there's one way to find out...
Posts: 244
Good start
Regardless of Mac vs PC and bit perfect debates, congratulations Chris for outlining a highly accessible system.
I'm sure there are a lot of Windows users out there who will already have a PC of similar spec and may be using XP. When they come to upgrade for computing use, the idea that they can recycle their old machine into a reference quality music server is going to be very appealing. It will spread the computer audio message like wildfire.
Posts: 27
Chris, How did this
Chris,
How did this reference system compare with the Amarra beta?
Posts: 4267
Hi Guys - Thanks for the
Hi Guys - Thanks for the comments thus far.
cfmsp - "Chris, did you try the AES 16 running OS X?"
No, unfortunately the new Mac Pros don't have any PCI slots.
VincentH - I wish I had a good answer for you but this one is out of my realm of expertise. I'd be doing a disservice if I claimed to have the answer here. I have some suspicions, but they are not fit to print just yet. It would be fabulous if all digital interfaces were the same. We could all get by with the cheapest optical output & Toslink cable available and the high-end would never be the same! People could actually afford to purchase all the music they want!
Shenzi - Thanks for recognizing the value in this one :-)
Lars - I'd love to comment but it wouldn't be fair to compare an unfinished product to production product. Good or bad the differences will likely change before Amarra is finally released.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Posts: 570
Vincent
Vincent,
Yes I agree. I'm using a far cheaper sound card, simply outputting a bit perfect optical stream from my sound card into the DAC within my ADM9.1's. They sound fabulous.
I can't see how there is a difference between bit perfect from one card to another; I guess drivers have an impact but if you're bit perfect then surely you're bit perfect.
Chris - just out of interest - how are you controlling this system ? A PC connected to a monitor ? Media Monkey is tought to control from your sofa - I try to but it's not ideal. Maybe there are some good skins out there that make this a little easier.
I'm very interested in how you're controlling it.
As for your server, I just knew it would be a combination of a cheap PC with enough processing power to media files and an expensive audio card. Great reading.
Regards,
Matt.
HTPC: AMD Athlon 4850e, 4GB, Vista, BD/HD-DVD into -> ADM9.1
Posts: 570
Actually ...
In addition to my post above I just saw this on the Media Monkey webpage ... Control it using the iPhone ...
http://www.mediamonkey.com/news/2008/11/05/new-mediamonkey-306-syncs-wit...
HTPC: AMD Athlon 4850e, 4GB, Vista, BD/HD-DVD into -> ADM9.1
Posts: 4267
Hi beemb - I'm controlling
Hi beemb - I'm controlling it with my MacBook Air via Remote Desktop. I have iMonkey on my iPod Touch but it is far from a fully functional application.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Posts: 134
Nice system, and
From what I've read up in forums, the difference between having an inexpensive high jitter interface, and an expensive low jitter interface is the difference between having to reconstruct the signal or potentially leaving the signal alone or not doing very much to it. I also read that high jitter signals reaching the dac can overload the circuits that reclock it, leaving more jitter than the dacs claim is left. It seems kind of like compression: low jitter doesn't need to be reconstructed (like uncompressed data), while high jitter needs reconstruction (like compressed data) which depends on the reclocking mechanism of the dac.
Cavan
Posts: 25
No AES
What if your DAC has no AES inputs? (a la Benchmark DAC PRE).
Posts: 338
Nice One, Chris :)
Great article and many thanks for your hard work!
The main thing I was hoping for from the article, and indeed I got, was a clearer idea of how to approach the whole music server thing with regards to future upgrades. The Lynx card is quite expensive here in the UK - at £650 it is only £150 shy of the cost of a new PS Audio Digital Link III. But, provided the PC has a spare PCI slot then the Lynx can be added at a later date, if so desired. It also seems that, once again, AES is a clear winner of USB? So a DAC with usb inputs for now, and AES for later, would also be a good idea! At my price point, that's me sorted then:)
Credit crunch anyone? Nah! - thought not!
Bob
Posts: 228
Chris, Common a dell... what
Chris,
Common a dell... what you want this too work for like what a couple of weeks. Why not the L22 it works just as well and would save you some dimes...
Thanks
Gordon
J. Gordon Rankin
~~~~~~~~~~
Wavelength Audio
Posts: 4267
Hi Gordon - I love the
Hi Gordon - I love the comments! This is the first Dell I've purchased in my life and I was really hesitant. Plus the internal components of this machine are nothing to write home about. As I said in the article, everything about this project goes against my grain. Fortunately I am extremely happy with the outcome.
The L22 only supports 96k digital output and 192k analog output. The AES16 is worth the extra cost.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Posts: 131
Mike Ritter strikes again!
Chris Hi, you already know my experience trying more or less this system, how does your Mac pro/ lynx/BAD compare to the dell/lynx /BAD the only difference is the OS/software ? Very Best keith.
www.puriteaudio.co.uk
Posts: 319
The Best Computer Based Audio Solution Available?
I have several comments/questions and I have to object on several fronts:
1. The price – 1040 makes me think of taxes.
2. A computer based audio solution should be a replacement for a CD player. Your solution does not include a DAC for $1,040. Your reference DAC makes this a $6K solution.
3. A noisy computer has no place in audio. Aside from the obvious listening room objections, noticeable noise or vibrations in components rarely improve the sonic qualities of music. Definitely cannot be considered reference quality.
4. The cost of the Windows XP software is not included – foul.
5. Aged software and firmware obsolescence? Are software and firmware upgrades reversible in case users try different versions to improve audio quality over the next, say 5 years?
6. Are the inexpensive upgrades for memory (+$75 for 4GB) or hard disk storage (+$50 for 500GB) not worth the money?
7. Possibility of blown tweeters? – deserves a strong warning to proceed at your own risk unless your in the speaker business.
8. Antenna breakout cables? – I believe your HD26 to XLR AES/EBU Cable Update bears repeating - a better cable is highly desirable.
9. A better computer power supply, better power cord and vibration control should improve audio playback.
Chris, thanks for trying. Of course the heart (and cost) of what you are recommending is the Lynx Studio AES16 PCI card from your CASH List. But how does it compare to the AES16e card? I feel that a detailed commentary from you is fair game since both cards are from the same manufacturer and I thought identical in price.
As suggested by ‘blessingx’, the Mac mini and Apogee Duet is probably a more cost effective solution if you don’t mind the 24/96 limits of the Duet.
Posts: 4267
Hi audiozorro - I do hear
Hi audiozorro - I do hear your concerns but don't share in your cynicism. To be honest your post left a real sour taste in my mouth. Of course I respect your honesty as you no doubt will respect mine.
I believe I more or less touched on several of your concerns, but I will address them here as well.
"1. The price – 1040 makes me think of taxes."
To be honest the price makes me think of a great way to get into the music server game with a true reference transport for less money than it takes to walk into a high-end store. There is no way I can include taxes in this system because we have readers from 165 different countries and all 50 states of the US which each have different or no sales taxes. There are very few items for sale that include the tax as part of the description. If the 1040 makes you think of 1040 EZ I can't help you there and many of our readers will be lost on that one as well.
"2. A computer based audio solution should be a replacement for a CD player. Your solution does not include a DAC for $1,040. Your reference DAC makes this a $6K solution."
Your definition of computer based solution appears to be fixed and must include all components to replace a CD player. I don't agree that there is a fixed definition of computer based audio solution and I addressed some of this concern in my Setting Expectations section. I also mentioned, "...Combined the Alpha DAC and this system are right around $6,000." I could have published the article including the Alpha DAC and still be very excited about the low cost of great sound. I chose to leave the DAC choice up to each listener. Most of our readers are much more familiar with DACs than they are with computers.
"3. A noisy computer has no place in audio. Aside from the obvious listening room objections, noticeable noise or vibrations in components rarely improve the sonic qualities of music. Definitely cannot be considered reference quality."
The sound of this system is 100% reference quality. Noisy is a subjective term and many readers have their own ways of dealing with this. In addition I easily could have included the totally fanless system I just built based ona Zalman TNN300 case, but that would increase the price by about $600. There certainly are pitfalls with the system in this article and I was straight forward in mentioning them. I really recommend you give this system a listen before taking a guess that the sound is not reference quality. The people I briefly spoke about in this article, mastering engineers, component designers, band members, etc ..., all think this system is reference quality. None of them has any vested interest in any computer platform. The systems used for listening tests comprised TAD M1 and Magico loudspeakers with the highest of the high-end performing components to power these speakers.
"4. The cost of the Windows XP software is not included – foul."
This was addressed very early in the article. In fact one reader who has already posted a comment suggests people will use a PC they already have and avoid purchasing this license. Since I had a copy and it is pretty likely there are legal avenues to avoid purchasing this license I think it's fair to exclude this from the price.
"5. Aged software and firmware obsolescence? Are software and firmware upgrades reversible in case users try different versions to improve audio quality over the next, say 5 years?"
I also expressed my concern in the article for legacy drivers and firmware and gave many valid reasons for this concern. Fortunately a music server to a certain extent can be frozen in time in terms of upgrades. Plus, the software and firmware are up and down-gradable. As I wrote in the article, "...I had to run an easy program that automatically downgraded the firmware from the current version to Rev 22."
"6. Are the inexpensive upgrades for memory (+$75 for 4GB) or hard disk storage (+$50 for 500GB) not worth the money?"
That's a personal decision. Worth the money is very subjective. I did not try any of the offered upgrades with this system so I can't say what the effect would have been. I can say my machine has performed flawless thus far.
"7. Possibility of blown tweeters? – deserves a strong warning to proceed at your own risk unless your in the speaker business."
Most certainly and is one of the reasons I listed for my hesitancy with this project. Using this system as purely a music server and not attempting to change settings or track names etc... will go a long way towards keeping your tweeters safe. It was worth the risk in my opinion.
"8. Antenna breakout cables? – I believe your HD26 to XLR AES/EBU Cable Update bears repeating - a better cable is highly desirable."
Most certainly. As I said in the article, "...Keeping on my theme of readily available components and computers I selected the standard Lynx breakout cable (CBL-AES1604 Eight-channel HD26 to XLR AES I/O Cable for AES16). I do prefer my custom HD26 to XLR AES cable as it removes the unneeded "antennae" from the equation but decided against its inclusion as part of this system because it's not readily available yet..."
This is also a matter of where to draw the line and when is a reference sounding system rally a reference sounding system. I could have purchased a generator and run this system off the grid as well, but I didn't think that was required and I don't think the cable is mandatory in order to get reference quality sound.
"9. A better computer power supply, better power cord and vibration control should improve audio playback."
Al systems can be improved, but the possibility of improvement doesn't preclude a system from reference quality sound.
Again, this response is not personal. It contains my honest responses to your comments. I've always enjoyed your candid comments around here and look forward to reading them again. I was a bit taken aback by your comments in this thread so please forgive my if my honesty seems a little to strong.
Thanks audiozorro!
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Posts: 76
MM setup (options)
I installed the in_wave.dll add-on for AIFF support in MediaMonkey. The Output Plugin I use is wave_out.dll.*
...maybe I have not understood: no more ASIO? Can you explain for the dummies like me, some more about the settings of MM?
Thankx, Luca.
*link are welcome :)
Posts: 4267
Hi Luca - The ASIO plugin
Hi Luca - The ASIO plugin available from the Lynx site work just as well, but because the file is on a Japanese language website it can be difficult for people to download. So, I stuck with the wave_out.dll version and all was good. The settings are real easy. You just tell it to output to the audio card and disable volume control.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Posts: 570
Yep
Yes, I think the "definately not reference quality" is a slightly strange comment. Not only is it a quiet PC but I believe Chris mentioned he had it shut in a cabinet or something.
HTPC: AMD Athlon 4850e, 4GB, Vista, BD/HD-DVD into -> ADM9.1
Posts: 76
Ok...thank you: I have
Ok...thank you: I have already downloaded the ASIO from the link you post last days and without problems; what about the 2 "new" you are telling us now? (Where it is possible to DWNLD it?)
L.
(Sorry but I am ready to buy the Weiss DFI and to configure my "new" samsungQ45 with XP and mediaMonkey, all TO > external DAC...and...these PC-steps makes me...but I am ready...)
;-)
Posts: 319
I guess I was looking for a different solution
To me this is virtually identical to the Windows XP Reference Music Server you recommended back in August.
Windows XP Reference Music Server
- OS - Windows XP Professional ($270 @ Newegg.com)
- Computer hardware - Intel based ($1,500 to $10,000+ depending on customization)
- Music App - MediaMonkey Gold ($20)
- Output Plugin - waveOut (out_wave.dll)
- Digital I/O - Lynx AES16 (PCI version) (~$700)
- Legacy drivers and firmware
- DAC - Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC ($~5,000)
There is nothing wrong with this, no doubt this is an excellent music server, and perhaps ‘all roads do lead to Rome’.
No offense is taken by any of your comments and my apologies for not being more sensitive to your efforts. I assume you often have to walk a tightrope between audio users, manufacturers and business interests.
Yes I probably should have left off my first comment which was intended as an inside the U.S. tongue-in-cheek reference to the often dreaded U.S. Federal Tax Forms 1040 or 1040 EZ.
The cost savings in the music server are primarily due to using a low cost computer. My personal opinion is that the music server sounds good despite the use of the budget computer. Not that the music server sounds good because the Dell Inspiron 530 is superior to any of the more expensive Dell desktop computers that can take a full height PCI card and that may have higher quality parts inside. But, perhaps you may be correct that spending more money than for the $279 Dell will not bring sonic improvements or that the sonic differences will be negligible.
Also, how much of the excellent sound is due to the $5K DAC? Would a $1K DAC, like the Benchmark DAC1 USB, using the AES/EBU XLR inputs with the Lynx card sound just as good?
I am glad to get your assurances that the software and firmware are up and down-gradable. Nothing could be worse than trying out some upgrade that turns out to be a disappointment and is irreversible.
Please correct me if I am wrong but my take on your November post from your August post is that the Windows XP Reference Music Server is sonically superior to your OS X Reference Music Server.
Posts: 4267
Hi audiozorro - Thanks for
Hi audiozorro - Thanks for the response. You are exactly right about this system's similarity to the system I mentioned back in August. That's one reason why I tried to create the cheapest solution around and why I mentioned that some readers won't be interested in this article. I'm sure you were one of those readers who read the article and said, "What's the big deal?" No worries. I think this server as a source can only improve a system's sound quality. If people use a Benchmark DAC1 USB the sound will not be hurt and likely improved depending on their existing system. A better source is never a bad thing. Right now I am favoring my Windows XP server over my Mac OS X music server. The XP system has absolutely awesome resolution. That said, I am not abandoning my Mac system as I like the sound of it and I'm awaiting the final version of Amarra and the Sonic Studio 304 hardware.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Posts: 319
Chris, thanks for all your
Chris, thanks for all your research and help.
Needless to say, I will be building the recommended ‘Audiophile Reference Music Server For A Song’.
I too will not abandon Mac system. I have a MacBook Pro laptop for portability and convenience and I can’t afford a $4K Mac Pro anytime soon.
I also like the fact that I can use my AIFF music files on both systems.
Posts: 5
A few basic questions--
Greetings,
First, thanks for your work in amassing computer audio knowledge in one (nice) site; I've read it for a while, and always enjoy my visits.
I have circled around computer audio for a while (cat around hot milk), but have hesitated due to the dizzying pace of developments in this nascent field. There is little consensus as to what sounds best (i.e. players, platforms, OSes) as the technology is immature, although this is improving a bit on a daily basis. Then, there's the issue of USB/SPDIF connectivity, which seems to counter many of the advantages of HDD-based audio due to poor jitter figures, and just generally seems to be a second-rate transfer method that requires lots of workarounds. Thankfully, the Lynx cards address this to an extent--XLR out to XLR in on a dac. Finally, solid-state HDDs are here, with all that entails.
My questions are:
1) What would you need to add to the Dell to get RAID 1 backup?
2) Am I correct in my assumption that AES out from a Lynx is a better, lower-jitter interface than USB, or is it 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another?
3) I think I'd rather have my HDDs in one case going directly to a Lynx card as opposed to, e.g., using a Mac Mini with a large library HDD connected via USB, as that signal would seem to have to go through USB cable to the Mini, then out again to a DAC. True? False?
4) Do you still have to carefully configure XP for best sound, e.g. work around KMixer, etc.?
Thanks!
Kristian
Posts: 2
Did you try analog out?
I've been reading your web site with much interest for quite a while now. Thanks for your work and for your getting me to think on this subject.
One thing that came to mind about your new low-cost reference system would be how does the analog output of the Lynx card sound? I think some posters over at the Audio Asylum run their Lynx cards strait to a preamp or an amp. I understand that the inside of a PC can be very bad for RFI, EMI, noise, etc., etc,....but maybe it's worth a listen.
Posts: 4267
Hi clar2391 - Welcome to
Hi clar2391 - Welcome to Computer Audiophile. The Lynx AES16 cards don't have any analog output features and do digital up to 24/192. The Lynx 22 does offer analog ouput at up to 24/192, but only offers digital output up to 24/96. I'm sticking with the AES16 for now. Maybe I can get an L22 in here for review and give the analog out a shot. Thanks for the post.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Posts: 65
I'd rather see something a bit more embedded
Foregoing a pre-assembled system from Dell or similar I think you can get something more appropriate to a stereo rack for about the same price from other vendors. I just priced a system out from http://www.mini-box.com/. It's based around the Intel D945GCLF2 mini-ITX motherboard. Specc'd with 2GB RAM, a 1.6GH Atom Dual Core CPU, DC power brick (gets rid of the PSU fan). Includes 1PCI slot, case includes a riser card, so full height should work. Price looks like $227.90 sans shipping.
The only thing missing is an HD which can be picked up for a song, or recycled from an old system.
There are numerous other embedded options out there. I put that together with about 5 minutes of research. Would love to hear about some options which would look/fit even more efficiently into a stereo rack.
Posts: 4267
Hi kristian - Welcome to
Hi kristian - Welcome to Computer Audiophile as well. Good questions.
"1) What would you need to add to the Dell to get RAID 1 backup?"
The concepts of RAID1 and backup are mutually exclusive. RAID1 is not a backup, it is a mirror that copies good and bad data. Backup can be any number of methods including tape or another hard drive. I'm not positive what you're looking to do so I'll take a guess. If you want a copy of your hard drive for backup purposes the cheapest thing to do is get an external USB or FireWire drive and copy your data over to this drive when you see fit. If you really want RAID1 you'll need a RAID card ~$500 and another hard drive. Remember RAID1 will only protect you from a disk failure. If you delete all your music on one drive the same deletions take place on the mirror. Let me know if you want to discuss this one in more detail.
"2) Am I correct in my assumption that AES out from a Lynx is a better, lower-jitter interface than USB, or is it 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another?"
I can say the AES output from a Lynx AES16 card has about 20 picoseconds of jitter and is rock solid. It's been tested for a while in the pro audio industry and is commonly used today. There are also some very good USB interfaces available from Gordon Rankin's Wavelength Audio and Steve Nugent's Empirical Audio.
"3) I think I'd rather have my HDDs in one case going directly to a Lynx card as opposed to, e.g., using a Mac Mini with a large library HDD connected via USB, as that signal would seem to have to go through USB cable to the Mini, then out again to a DAC. True? False?"
This is only a concern if you use a USB DAC and the DAC is on the same USB Bus as the hard drive. This can cause dropouts. If you use a FireWire hard drive this is not an issue. Don't worry about using an external disk v. internal for a music server. It's not an issue.
"4) Do you still have to carefully configure XP for best sound, e.g. work around KMixer, etc.?"
YES. I wold never use a straight-up XP install without any configuration. Many people do and enjoy the sound tremendously. Not me.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Posts: 4267
Hi ldolse - Thanks for the
Hi ldolse - Thanks for the post. I checked out the embedded systems and they look pretty cool. The PCI riser card gave me an idea about installing one into a Dell 530s model or a similar small form factor. I'd forgot about riser cards or even riser cables. I do think these embedded systems require a little more knowledge on the users part because of the OS options and the installation of Windows on one can be a bit different fro people who usually click Next >> Next >> Finish.
Great ideas and link!
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Posts: 134
I just realized the true
I just realized the true implications of this article. Sonically, the cheap Dell is the same as the Mac Pro. This means that the computer part of the equation is pretty much irrelevant in that any system marketed nowadays will work as well as one of the highest end computer systems. This only leaves the interface as the main cost and factor when it comes to a music server. So, are there any other digital interfaces that will output with similar low levels of jitter to the Lynx? Is the L22 equivalent in terms of jitter (you mentioned it only doing 24/96)? Do any I2S interfaces exist except for the off-ramp? How about a motherboard with I2S output?
It will be interesting to see where this technology evolves.
Posts: 338
I didn't read it that way
"I just realized the true implications of this article. Sonically, the cheap Dell is the same as the Mac Pro. This means that the computer part of the equation is pretty much irrelevant in that any system marketed nowadays will work as well as one of the highest end computer systems."
I didn't read it that way. The first question in this thread was mine - asking Chris if he tried the Lynx with a Macintosh. His answer was no. So we don't know if the 'cheap Dell' is the sonic equal of a Mac.
Since PCI has been usurped not once, but twice (PCIe and PCI-X), the PCI version of the Lynx cannot be installed in the latest multi-$K Mac. To test it, you'd need to buy an older version of Mac desktop - currently available on ebay for $500 or less. :-0
We also don't know if the extra resolution is of much value unless the signal is running through a $5k DAC. A $500 computer seems like an odd combination with a $5k DAC. That's only my opinion but I can tell you, if I was spending $5k on a DAC, I wouldn't use a cheap Dell as front end.
And finally, while the reason is still not understandable by yours truly, the leading edge of Computer Audio seems to point towards computers having a definite impact on the sound, irrespective of the bit-perfect is all that matters theory.
Who knows, perhaps 'bit-perfect' will soon be discovered to be analogous to the original CD marketing hype - it's all 0s ans 1s so it has to be perfect.
Thanks much to Chris for stirring the pot here. I, for one, had never imagined that I might want to stick an audio card into a retired Mac. Unfortunately, my old Mac Cube does not have a PCI slot, as I just discovered via Google.
Let 1000 opinions bloom!
Enjoy,
clay
Posts: 65
Yeah, definitely not for the
Yeah, definitely not for the point and click crowd, but for guys willing to get their hands a bit dirty it's not really that much more complicated. Not sure if the riser card would work in the smaller Dell's - sometimes they get so proprietary that that sort of stuff won't work.
I found some ITX cases which are much more deserving to sit in the stereo rack as well:
http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/Product.aspx?C=1328&ID=1433
http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/Product.aspx?C=1328&ID=1434
I think I may have a Christmas project on my hands when I head back to the states...
Posts: 244
Mac Cube
Hi Clay
The Cube would make rather a stylish music server for the living room.
An external DAC might be better anyway, in case you upgrade computers any time. Chris's Devilsound recommendation looks good and Ashley has recommended going the pro route with the likes of Edirol. Something I intend to try with my elderly G4 Powerbook. But first ... more memory!
Posts: 570
Clay ...
Clay,
Why does a $500 computer seem an odd combination with a $5k DAC.? All you need the computer to do is to RIP, manage and store your files - and of course have enough power to get the audio from the RAM to the audiocard. Most computers of ANY value, even a few years old, can do this without even a blink. So Chris has simply tried to get the best audio output from a computer based server for a little as possible. It does exactly what he set out to achieve.
As for your question re bit perfect I believe jitter is the problem here. Low cost audio cards are known to produce loads of jitter whereas Chris has used a card that is well respected within the industry.
I read on and see that Ashley has recommended the Edirol range of cards - external USB/Firewire devices. I'm sure they'd do a great job too, and if I feel the need to playback hi resolution audio I'll probably buy one of those.
If you wish to have a nice expensive Mac Pro sat alongside your expensive DAC then great... I took the far cheaper DIY route and whacked some decent quality audio components into an HTPC case. The fanless heatsink, upgraded silent power supply and rubber grommets around the hard drive mean its super silent.
MAtt.
HTPC: AMD Athlon 4850e, 4GB, Vista, BD/HD-DVD into -> ADM9.1
Posts: 570
Idolse
Idose,
... .. . . . . good links. But, if you can afford it, try one of these.
http://www.origenae.com/
HTPC: AMD Athlon 4850e, 4GB, Vista, BD/HD-DVD into -> ADM9.1
Posts: 570
Kristian
Kristian,
Configuring either Vista or XP for quality audio output really isn't that difficult, even without any computer knowledge. A little bit of fiddling is all you need - adding the wave out dll file to Media Monkey is straight forward, selecting it easier still ... just make sure you've installed your audio card correctly.
I can see how it may scare some - but my brother set his up with a new firewire interface in minutes without asking me any questions. I felt left out ;;; I wasn't needed :-(
Matt.
HTPC: AMD Athlon 4850e, 4GB, Vista, BD/HD-DVD into -> ADM9.1
Posts: 338
Matt
Thanks for your response Matt.
To your question about my odd comment:
Yes, Chris achieved what he set out to achieve - an inexpensive PC as the base of a computer audio system - and for that he should be lauded.
I still could/would not but the cheapest Dell I could find to source a $5k DAC.
Regarding the path you took, bravo - and I think it would make LOADS of sense to 'build' a stripped down PC with upgraded parts in all the right places as a Music server.
My comment re $500 seeming 'odd' was related to consumer-available products in general, and to any Dell (one of the worst), in particular.
As for 'jitter' being the 'unexplainable' impact of the computer, I was thinking of factors less well known than 'jitter'. Jitter is understood to be a significant problem - we can even measure it. Some believe that the actual software 'playing the bits' makes a difference in the sound.
The guys who collaborated on the Amarra solution are definitely in that camp.
I anxiously await Chris' writeup on his experience with the Amarra.
I will not likely be able to afford to buy Amarra soon, but am very interested in it's impact on the state of computer audio. I know the DAC in their 'solution' is excellent, I currently use the pro audio Metric Halo ULN-2 via Firewire when I don't just 'point & click' the Apple TV button in iTunes - in which case the signal travels wirelessly to the ATV, and then via Toslink on to the Metric Halo.
enjoy,
clay
Posts: 65
Beemb
The Origen stuff looks pretty sweet. Too bad the smallest form factor doesn't look like it's ready for full PCI on a riser. Next question is if one was going to go about spending the extra coin on a case like that, can Media Monkey drive the LCD?
Posts: 19
Audiophile Reference Music Server For A Song
Good to see your newest reference music server. Great to know XP can deliver a great sytem at a bargain price.
I note that the system you constructed does not include a DAC but at the end of your article you note that you can use the DAC of your choice. What is the advantage of using the DAC with the Lynx card in this system? Any improvement in sound? Or vice versa, if you plan to use a DAC without the Lynx card what are the pro's and con's.
I plan to set up a system using a sony vaio (laptop or desktop, whichever my wife will tolerate) running to a Cambridge DacMagic using Kimber USB cables and Kimber 1020 interconnects to the pre-amp. Storage will be a 2 terrabyte Western Digital Studio Drive with uncompressed wave files. Would a Lynx pci card add audio quality to this configuration?
Last issue for now. I have installed Media Monkey Gold. Is their anything special I need to do to configure this for windows xp? It has the wave_out.dll which I have selected by pressing the configure button. Doe this step eliminate the k-mixer from the chain or is there something else I need to do to optimize Media Monkey?
Posts: 319
Chris this is a nice
Chris this is a nice surprise from MediaMonkey. Have you tried to run your Windows XP Server headless?
Apple iPhones and iPod Touches can be used as remotes to control MediaMonkey as well, though unlike traditional remote controls these devices will send commands to MediaMonkey through a WiFi signal instead of Infrared transmission. With the iMonkey application available
from the iPhone app store, you can control MediaMonkey on your PC from your iPhone or iPod touch!
After you purchase the iMonkey application from the Apple AppStore, all that's needed is to make a quick download of the iMonkey server from: http://melloware.com/products/imonkey/
You'll have to start MediaMonkey with this modified MediaMonkey.exe file so that the iPhone or Touch can access MediaMonkey (no installation needed, just extract and double click the downloaded MediaMonkey.exe file).
Posts: 44
PCI Express AES16e verses the PCI AES16....
Chris:
Perhaps this is crazy, but do you think that the reason that the Windows XP music server may sound better is that it is using the Lynx PCI AES16 card verses the PCI Express AES16e version? Your review mentioned that the word on the street favored the PCI AES16 version. Just curious.
This may be harder to answer, but by saying the XP version sounds better, is it a night and day difference, or something that is only noticeable through extended listening?
Thanks for the review. I always enjoy reading your reviews!
Alan B
Posts: 14
Thanks Chris
Lynx is worth giving a try. As Chris says it is really audiophile quality but not audiophile prices.
Also it is without the hassles of USB/Firewire connections. For the people who want volume control, have power amp and one source only, should have a look at the "volume 2" module from "Sound Performance Lab".
It is sold for approx. 300€ in Europe and does a very decent job.
http://www.soundperformancelab.com/index.php?id=127&L=1
Posts: 394
First, I agree with Gordon,
First, I agree with Gordon, avoid the Dell like the plague.
Second: Chris - have you tried unmapping the device in XP rather than using ASIO?
I have found this to be superior - it works with Jriver and Foobar and the Lynx card. Not sure about Media Monkey though.
Third: I find the jitter from the Lynx AES16 card to be unacceptable. The oscillator is nothing special and is actually a VCO of some sort in order to track the word-clock input. I am using the word-clock input driven from a Pace-Car reclocker and then I can get I2S, AES or S/PDIF output with low jitter. It takes about a minute for the Lynx AES16 to sync to the word-clock from the Pace-Car, but then it runs fine indefinitely.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
http://www.empiricalaudio.com
Posts: 319
Steve, I have several Dell
Steve, I have several Dell computers and I see nothing wrong with them. My oldest computer is a Dell Dimension XPS D300 computer Pentium II 300 MHz computer that has worked well over 10 years. The newest Dell computers are obviously much faster and more capable, but I was really surprised at just how quiet they are. I have several other brand name and custom computers and I would probably never buy the cheapest Dell computer but I assume Chris was demonstrating that one could assemble an excellent music server using it.
“I find the jitter from the Lynx AES16 card to be unacceptable”.
I thougt the data provided on this site showed that the jitter for the Lynx AES16 card was very low. Do you also find the jitter from the Lynx AES16e card to be unacceptable?
“I am using the word-clock input driven from a Pace-Car reclocker and then I can get I2S, AES or S/PDIF output with low jitter. It takes about a minute for the Lynx AES16 to sync to the word-clock from the Pace-Car, but then it runs fine indefinitely”.
What is the additional cost to the suggested CA Windows XP Reference Music Server and in your opinion what sonic benefits will be gained? Will this do anything to diminish or increase the problems reported of blown tweeters with Windows XP?
Posts: 69
MAc Pro vs "cheap Dell"
Chris. Over on another topic in music servers, some guy managed to get 24/192 out of Vista 64 running on a Mac Pro. Can Vista 64 run on your "cheap Dell"? Also is the fact that the MAC PRO running OSX can only output 24/96, a software issue then with OSX? I find this amazing. For years Apple has been THE software for music...am I right on this? Now we find Apple has been one up'd by Microsoft. Hey guys what is goin' on? I mean how long before OSX is upgraded to 24/192?
It's also important news in planning the best way to get audio out of a MacPro. Why get the Lynx card now, if you can run optical or USB out say straight from the midi into one of Empirical's computer interfaces @ 24/192? Why get a firewire interface for something like Amarra if this solution becomes available using the MacPro midi?
I get the feeling a punter like me could save potential hundreds on more wasted computer soundcards and "CFAT" by waiting just a couple more months till the dust settles on all this...
Your cheap "dell server" might be cheap, then again, if it is a darn noisy beast, runs an outdated version of Windows and the soundcard becomes obsolete with the stroke of an overnight "Apple software" upgrade, it doesn't seem so "cheap" after all....
AB
Posts: 319
If the highest audio
If the highest audio fidelity solution (in this case the CA Windows XP Music Server) gets outclassed overnight, great. But if we believe that this is the best digital playback system to date, it’s still a great place to start. If the CA Reference Music Server is better than any CD player, DVD player, SACD player, Universal player, transport and DAC combination or computer music server, who can complain. I happen to believe that certain mods or improvements will always be possible to the best of systems.
BTW I have been able to get 24/192 playback from my MacBook Pro using firewire connections to the TC Electronics Konnekt 8 or Apogee Mini DAC for some time. These solutions were easily bested by other DACs solutions only capable of 24/96 through coaxial, toslink or USB. And I have to assume that these solutions would have been surpassed if I was able to get the firewire Minerva DAC.
Posts: 131
sq
'BTW I have been able to get 24/192 playback from my MacBook Pro using firewire connections to the TC Electronics Konnekt 8 or Apogee Mini DAC for some time. These solutions were easily bested by other DACs solutions only capable of 24/96 through coaxial, toslink or USB. And I have to assume that these solutions would have been surpassed if I was able to get the firewire Minerva DAC.
Zorro just to be clear, your firewire solutions were bested by another dac which was only capable of 24/96 is that correct? What ws that dac ? But you think that the Weiss might be better through firewire than the other dac through AES? Thanks Keith.
www.puriteaudio.co.uk
Posts: 570
Jitter
The Lynx cards suffer from unacceptable levels of jitter ? Really. I am shocked by this. Isn't it almost an industry standard and very well respected within pro audio circles.
I'm sure the pace-car is a great product, but, it's a hell of a price and since I'm told that in my system jitter is a "non-issue", I'd be scared to fork out that sort of money to eliminate something that may not make a difference.
HTPC: AMD Athlon 4850e, 4GB, Vista, BD/HD-DVD into -> ADM9.1
Posts: 3
Really difficult option
I want to begin in the computer audio world, but it is very difficult, actually I have a Cary 306 SACD Professional player, that has digital inputs (toslink spdif and AES/EBU), so I can use it like a DAC that can read digital inputs of 44, 96 and 192 khz and HDCD. I have many options:
1.- Sell the Cary and purchase one firewire or usb dac like Weiss Minerva (firewire), Wavelength Cosecant (USB), Empirical Audio Spoiler (USB) or even Red Wine Audio Isabellina (USB nos battery dac). With this option I don't know if those dacs will have an audio quality at the level of the Cary, and furthermore I should to renounce to the possibility of to hear SACD.
2.- To build a fanless PC (which is difficult and expensive) with the Lynx AES16 and use the Cary as a dac with AES/EBU connection.
3.- Purchase a Mac mini and use the Minerva Vesta for firewire to AES/EBU to the Cary.
What would you choose of this 3 options?
Chris, for your experience with the Linx AES16 and the digital output of the Weiss Minerva (same as Vesta), what do you feel that is the better option in sound quality, apart of cost?.
If some of you know the sound of the Cary compared with any of the above DACs (Alpha, Cosecant, Minerva... including the Berkeley Alpha Dac) your comments will be WELCOME.
Chris, with respect the Berkeley Alpha Dac, what do you think of its digital volume control?, do you think that degrade the sound more than an analog volume control?. Thanks for your advice-comments.
Posts: 319
Coops, two of my other DACs
Coops, two of my other DACs clearly bested the TC Electronics Konnekt 8 and Apogee Mini DAC.
Based on a recommendation from Savant Audio and listening tests from myself and others my reference DAC is a Denon DVD-5000. It is the unit that Savant Audio recommends for their high-end systems costing around $100K. It is sometimes available on Audiogon or eBay for around $300-$500. The Denon DVD-5000 should only be used as a DAC only, though using it as a CD player, it is often better than many other highly regarded CD or SACD players in the $2K and under category. It doesn’t do SACD but it does do HDCD and according to CA the HDCD indicator light is a good way for verifying bit perfect playback.
My other reference DAC is the Benchmark DAC1 USB. The Benchmark DAC1 is truly an industry benchmark by which other DACs are judged. The reviews of the DAC1 have always been good such as here http://6moons.com/audioreviews/benchmark/dac1_2.html which I feel is an honest review. I had the opportunity to own both the DAC1 and DAC1 USB for about a week of testing. Using the toslink connection only for an apples-to-apples comparison, the DAC1 USB was noticeably better. I have not heard the Benchmark DAC1 Pre but I have read some comments that it is slightly improved sonics than previous versions, but there are some i/o connections tradeoffs to consider. There are also some mods to the DAC1 such as those by Empircal Audio have been said to bring improvements in audio fidelity. The only improvement I have made to date is to replace the power cord with a used Shunyata Cobra power cord that I picked up for around $400 and the musical improvement was significant.
Though I have not heard the Apogee Duet, everyone that has heard both the Apogee Mini DAC ($1,000) and Apogee Duet ($500) seem to prefer the Duet even though it is limited to 24/96. The only exceptions came from individuals that upgraded the power supply of the Mini DAC to a Sigma 11 regulated power supply. I believe that some of the Duet advantage comes from being powered by the computer firewire connection.
Posts: 394
"Do you also find the jitter
"Do you also find the jitter from the Lynx AES16e card to be unacceptable?"
I have not heard one, but I expect the same type of design and the same oscillator as in the AES16.
"What is the additional cost to the suggested CA Windows XP Reference Music Server and in your opinion what sonic benefits will be gained? Will this do anything to diminish or increase the problems reported of blown tweeters with Windows XP?
The Pace-Car 2 is $1500 and has dual word-clock output for 44.1 and 96. Sonic benefits due to lower jitter are: Less harshness in vocals, better imaging, blacker backgrounds, better focus and improved dynamics, top to bottom. If I had to describe it in one word, it would be improved clarity. It's like cleaning the haze from the window that you are trying to see through.
The blown tweeters has to do with the D/A not muting properly usually when using USB or Firewire. The Pace-Car 2 does mute the digital signal when it is not valid, so it is possible that in some cases it might help. I have never had this problem with my gear.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
http://www.empiricalaudio.com
Posts: 394
"The Lynx cards suffer from
"The Lynx cards suffer from unacceptable levels of jitter ? Really. I am shocked by this. Isn't it almost an industry standard and very well respected within pro audio circles."
So? I have modded a few pro-audio pieces. I find nothing exceptional about the designs or the parts used. In fact, they are generally inferior I have found to the best audiophile gear. The pro-audio industry needs to improve because the audiophile playback has left them in the dust. The limiter is now the studios and the recordings IMO.
"I'm sure the pace-car is a great product, but, it's a hell of a price and since I'm told that in my system jitter is a "non-issue", I'd be scared to fork out that sort of money to eliminate something that may not make a difference."
I am not asking you to buy one. And you have the right to believe whatever you read.
I have a large backlog of customers, and incidently quite a few are upgrading from Pace-Car to Pace-Car 2. There are two reviewers that use the Pace-Car for their digital audio: Editor of Positive-Feedback, Dave Clark and Editor of Stereo Times, Larry Borden. According to what has been written on-line, customers apparently hear a BIG difference with the Pace-Car as evidenced by this review:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue39/ramblings_computer.htm
The way my wife describes it is "unmistakable".
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
http://www.empiricalaudio.com
Posts: 394
"I want to begin in the
"I want to begin in the computer audio world, but it is very difficult, actually I have a Cary 306 SACD Professional player, that has digital inputs (toslink spdif and AES/EBU), so I can use it like a DAC that can read digital inputs of 44, 96 and 192 khz and HDCD. I have many options:
1.- Sell the Cary and purchase one firewire or usb dac like Weiss Minerva (firewire), Wavelength Cosecant (USB), Empirical Audio Spoiler (USB) or even Red Wine Audio Isabellina (USB nos battery dac). With this option I don't know if those dacs will have an audio quality at the level of the Cary, and furthermore I should to renounce to the possibility of to hear SACD."
First, the Spoiler is no longer available. It has been replaced by the SS Overdrive USB DAC.
Second, a comparison is easy. It turns-out that Dave Clark, editor of Positive-Feedback has the same Cary player-DAC that you do and he uses the Pace-Car with it and a Macbook (see last post for link). I have heard the Cary DAC and you can do a lot better, but if you like the sound, then keep it and just drive it with a low-jitter source.
Steve N.
http://www.empiricalaudio.com
Posts: 48
Remote Control for XP music server
Could one help me and guide me what kind of posibilities are available for remote controlling a XP music server.
I was always looking towards a MAC based system for easy remote control, but the combination with a Lynx AES16 card would mean hugh investments in MacPro maschine.
But I do have an old XP PC sitting around which I could transfer into a music server by adding the Lynx AES16 card.
So all help is wellcome.
Best...EMW
Best....EMW
Itunes,Songbird,Play->MacBookPro 2.5Ghz 2GBRAM+FW Seagate ToGo->Toslink->HBDacV2.0+Borbely Balanced I/V converter ->Borbely Balanced Preamp->Active X-over-> 4 Class A Monoamps->3 Way SpeakerHeavens SE
Posts: 338
Lynx AES16 also runs on inexpensive Macs
"I was always looking towards a MAC based system for easy remote control, but the combination with a Lynx AES16 card would mean hugh investments in MacPro maschine."
You can use the Lynx AES16 in any Mac desktop that has a PCI or PCI-X slot.
You can buy Powermac G5s or G4s easily on ebay for roughly the same price as the 'cheap Dell'. There is NO need to run the Lynx on XP.
Given the quality decline in Dell over the years, I'd trust an older Mac over a new Dell.
Enjoy,
Clay
Posts: 24
Hey audiozorro A little off
Hey audiozorro
A little off topic here
I am curious since I also own a TC Electronics Konnekt 8 which I use as a digital interface for my computer.
Have you tried your Konnekt 8 digitally into your Benchmark DAC1 or Denon DVD-5000. If so what is your opinion on the SQ
If not it maybe worthwhile endeavor because although the Konnekt 8 may have a mediocre DAC chip it has the same FW and jitter reduction circuits as the Weiss Minerva and Vesta. The digital out is limited to 96khz but really for now there is sparse 192 media available.
Myself I find the sound I am getting with the Konnekt 8 digital out into the tact 2150's is amazing and easily best my previous HQ source a Levinson 39 directly feeding a Krell KSA150.
regards
Uzeb
PC running XP pro, C Play, TC Electonic Konnect 8 Firewire to Spdif, 2 Tact 2150X amplifiers, Modified Genesis 500 Speakers, Virtual Dynamics, XLO Cables
Posts: 338
What hassles of firewire?
ASB said:
"Lynx is worth giving a try. As Chris says it is really audiophile quality but not audiophile prices. Also it is without the hassles of USB/Firewire connections."
I'm curious what is meant by 'hassles of Firewire connections".
Frankly, installing a Lynx is several orders of magnitude MORE of a hassle than Firewire.
First you must install the card, and it can only be used in a computer with a PCI slot, and then you have all those extra cables hanging off the card (picking up only God knows what).
For firewire, I just connect a cable between my computer and DAC.
Oh, and it costs $700 more than my firewire cable.
enjoy,
clay
Posts: 4267
"Oh, and it costs $700 more
"Oh, and it costs $700 more than my firewire cable."
That's a god one Clay. All in good fun of course :-)
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Posts: 338
all in good fun...
Yes, Chris, absolutely 'all in good fun'.
I could care less what systems others use or how much they invest.
As near as I can tell, their is not 'truth' in the subjective pursuit we could call audiophilia.
It's all opinions. Yours, mine, Ashley's, Mike's, whomever.
Thanks for sharing yours so eloquently and frequently.
enjoy,
clay
Posts: 319
Uzeb, the Konnekt 8
Uzeb, the Konnekt 8 doesn’t get much play in my system. I keep it around thinking one day I may want to digitize some of my LPs at 24/192. But, if I had to do it all over again I would probably settle for 24/96 recording with the Apogee Duet.
I don’t think I tried the combinations you suggested, but I once tried the Konnekt 8 feeding the Apogee Mini DAC to ensure that it was outputting 24/192. The Apogee Mini DAC was the only DAC I had that displayed all the resolutions, 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, and 192 with LEDs. I believe I preferred the sound of just using the firewire connection from my MacBook Pro to the Apogee Mini DAC instead of adding the Konnekt 8 to the signal path.
I agree with your assessment that the Konnekt 8 has a mediocre DAC. I also believe that both the Konnekt 8 and Apogee Mini DAC would benefit if used with an external clock, such as the Apogee Big Ben. I don’t know the sonic qualities of inputting the digital signal to the firewire input of the Konnekt 8 and outputting through the coaxial output to another DAC, but I’m glad your setup sounds amazing.
Posts: 17
If I was going use a Lynx
If I was going use a Lynx AES16, I'd spend the extra money and put it in an Dell Optiplex.
If I was starting a new PC audio system. I'd wait for the new PSAudio system due out 2/08. See their November newsletter for more info.
While wait for I wait for the PSAudio gear, I'm enjoying
AIFF files on my Apple TV/iTouch combo running through an upgraded Genesis Digital Lens. No PC required for playback.
Posts: 4267
Hi Dan - I'm wondering why
Hi Dan - I'm wondering why you'd go with the Optiplex?
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Posts: 394
"Have you tried your Konnekt
"Have you tried your Konnekt 8 digitally into your Benchmark DAC1 or Denon DVD-5000. If so what is your opinion on the SQ"
I had a Konnect in the system last weekend and we compared it to my own USB converters. From what I had read on the DiceII chip and the JET jitter reduction technology, we had high hopes. Well, it's not even close to a good USB implementation I'm sorry to say. It is not asynchronous, so it is similar to typical USB interfaces. It can probably sound better than this particular device, but it comes down to implementation. The Konnect board has a lot of deficiencies IMO, not to mention a really cheap clock. What do you expect for $100?
Steve N.
http://www.empiricalaudio.com
Posts: 17
Chris- The Optiplex has more
Chris-
The Optiplex has more room for extra drives and has much lower PSU noise level.
I use a 2.4Ghz Optiplex 745 with two 500G HDs and 4G of ram that I got for under $900. as my main PC. It feeds an SD Duet upgraded by A.R.T. , when I want to access more music than my 160g Apple TV.
Posts: 38
optiplex etc
I'll agree that the higher end optiplex will have a lower noise floor than the Inspiron. When I upgraded my main system I chose an Antech Sonata II for the case a couple years ago. Huge difference, and one of the other boxes here is now unusable for me because of the noise factor. Best choice of my upgrade.
That said, Chris' selection was all about getting a pc that could do the job for the least money. The pc demands for this sort of application are low, it's the i/o that is important, hence the Lynx selection. This was all known hardware, not vaporware. The real work was the testing, testing and more testing. And we get to benefit.
Yes Windows XP will be riding off into the sunset - eventually. Just remember that you'll be able to move the antivirus tasks to your firewall at some point (meaning economically for home users, it's already in the SMB and Enterprise space) and if you keep the XP box off the internet it could have an even longer reliable life. One of the (several) reasons Vista has met with some resistance is that XP is a mature OS and for the most part just works.
As for me I will be looking to moving from server system v1.0 to at least v1.5 in 2009, thanks in large part to the ideas I get in this forum.
Thanks to all for the constructive comments, and to Chris for all the work.
Posts: 24
"What do you expect for $100?"
"What do you expect for $100?"
Where does the $100.00 come from. Sells for around $300.00 any place I look and considering the volume TC sells there maybe some economy's of scale in relation to value for the dollar vs Audiophile equipment.
Steve I have followed your work with great interest and have put faith in many things you have written in different forums. But I have also noticed that you trash almost everything whilst promoting your equipment.
Since there is such a backlog of orders for pace cars maybe you can recommend some other set-ups you think work well.
Regards Uzeb
PC running XP pro, C Play, TC Electonic Konnect 8 Firewire to Spdif, 2 Tact 2150X amplifiers, Modified Genesis 500 Speakers, Virtual Dynamics, XLO Cables
Posts: 38
one more thing...
Dug this out of the forums here....
This was from March 2008, and yes Chris you did get to it !
Thanks for the post
Thanks for the post Donkeyshins. I'll try to offer an equivalent PC model next time. I've been a little hesitant because I don't like the non-bit perfect issues on PCs. No worries though, I'll get to it.
Posts: 4267
Ha! You guys are the best!
Ha! You guys are the best!
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Posts: 714
Great work, Chris. Still,
Great work, Chris. Still, given my belief that bit-perfect is, well, bit-perfect, the cheapest solution is a dedicated hard drive connected to an existing computer. A Terabyte is about 200 bucks. You could mirror for backup, download the latest version of iTunes and still be at lest than half the the cost of the budget system. But clearly, you're hearing things that I cannot.
Old iBook G4 > Western Digital > whatever...
Tim
I confess. I'm an audiophool.
Posts: 193
Dell
We ordered a new Dell for business use and it was too noisy.
It was so noisy in fact that we had a repair agent out who changed something to do with the fan.
Even still, it's big, non-silent, ugly and grey.
However, I'm happy you've found a level of performance this high for a modest outlay.
Personally I'll stick with my Mini connected straight into my speakers and controlled with iPod Touch for the home.
Regards
Posts: 131
Computer speakers
The adm's do make ideal computer speakers.
www.puriteaudio.co.uk
Posts: 4267
Hi Darren - Fortunately all
Hi Darren - Fortunately all Dells are not the same. The one I used in this system is very low power and low heat. Thus, the noise may be quite a bit lower than the specific Dell you ordered. But, my cheap Dell is certainly not silent. You are correct that this is a high level of performance for a modest outlay. Thanks for the post.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Posts: 193
Reply
Coops,
Your jokes never age :)
Chris,
Can I read into this that:
1) The Lynx card is your favourite-sounding one out there?
2) You just need a cheap tower PC with PCI slot to operate it?
3) It is desirable to spend extra to get some silent parts?
If so, would you say that the Lynx is responsible for the vast majority of the sound, rather than the other bits in the system?
Darren
Posts: 4267
Hi Darren - 1. The Lynx is
Hi Darren -
1. The Lynx is my go-to digital I/O right now. It's used in the pro audio industry extensively.
2. Be careful with the statement about just needing a cheap PC with a PCI slot. PCs are all over the board in terms of quality and performance. That's the reason I have to test this specific Dell before even mentioning it on the site. In theory you are correct, but it may be an over-generalization in reality.
3. Yes. I don't think I will build or purchase another music server for myself unless it is silent or I can make it silent. The fact that the server is silent really eliminates any thoughts about having a computer in the listening room. It's far less distracting even if your current PC is pretty quiet.
I will say the Lynx is a great part of the sound, but everything matters.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Posts: 5
Lynx card
Regarding Steve Nugent's comments about the Lynx card, I, too, have those concerns. I don't see any particular reason why the Lynx card should be so good at outputting digital audio at it's rather steep price, unless it has superb jitter reduction and outputs a very low jitter digital signal. It doesn't look like anyone here has ever actually tested the Lynx's jitter output, perhaps apart from Mr. Nugent. Or?
What about the Lynx, then, makes it better when combined with a regular DAC than asynchronous USB DACs that control the computer's clocking, like e.g. Wavelength, Benchmark (as I understand it), and Empirical do?
Posts: 4267
Hi kristian - You have very
Hi kristian - You have very valid concerns that will likely only be addressed by you personally. I think you would have to listen to one and make your own decision.
"...I don't see any particular reason why the Lynx card should be so good at outputting digital audio..."
I'm not sure what to tell you on this one. Lack of marketing material or evidence is certainly not proof that it does not exist. I don't know your background so I'm not sure what exactly you mean when you say you don't see any reason why it should be good. Nonetheless you have a very valid concern and one that more than a few readers on the site share as well.
I can tell you that the Lynx card is used in post production for some of the most "audiophile" albums every made. Engineers who can pick and chose any system they want o achieve the best sound quality have selected Lynx for years.
The Lynx jitter spec is 20 ps.
"What about the Lynx, then, makes it better when combined with a regular DAC than asynchronous USB DACs that control the computer's clocking, like e.g. Wavelength, Benchmark (as I understand it), and Empirical do?"
The adjective "better" is very subjective. Better in terms of features and capability is easier to determine. The Lynx supports 24/192 natively and I can easily use an external clock to take it one step up. In terms of better sound quality, that's totally up to each individual. At 24/96 and under maybe they all sound similar to most people.
Anyway, yours is a solid concern. Thanks for the post.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Posts: 5
Thanks, Chris, for the
Thanks, Chris, for the response. When I say I don't see why it should be so good, I really mean that it would be nice to see actual testing of the jitter output to evaluate the claims. Otherwise, I'm sure you're aware that ProTools and other computer-based digital mixing software is no panacea to good sound; contrarily, I'd offer the opinion that the current overwhelming dominance of music recording by way of ProTools has reduced sound quality over good analogue recording/mixing methods. Lynx stuff is used only in combination with ProTools etc. as a digital I/O facilitator. The sole fact that it is a pro-device doesn't make it superior. And this from an active ATC owner!
Further, there are all kinds of reasons to get jitter redution etc. out of the computer due to power supply issues. It's tough to get a Lynx card good, clean power. Off the bat, I'd think that Wavelength's asynchronous method of controlling the computer clock and Empirical's reclocking/i2s interfacing is where it's really at for best sound.
It would be beneficial (and fun) if you did some basic testing of the stuff you review. This is critically important in computer audio in particular, as it is in so much flux, with so many shibboleths waiting to be debunked. What is the true jitter output of the Lynx cards? They say 20 ps; test it. What is the jitter reduction capabilities of DACs on test? What does internal computer power really look like? Is it truly noisy? Scope it. What are the jitter figures of various computers' TOSLINK outs? Bit perfect? Oh yeah? We'll see about that. Etc. etc. You don't have to be an engineer to learn how to do this either.
Best,
Kristian
Posts: 4267
"...I'd offer the opinion
"...I'd offer the opinion that the current overwhelming dominance of music recording by way of ProTools has reduced sound quality over good analogue recording/mixing methods. Lynx stuff is used only in combination with ProTools etc. as a digital I/O facilitator. The sole fact that it is a pro-device doesn't make it superior. And this from an active ATC owner!"
I agree for the most part. I'm thinking of applications like Soundblade and Sequoia Digital Samplitude. The digital 24/176.4 Reference Recordings masters are doing just fine. Good analog is certain welcome in my book as well. Shelby Lynne's new album comes to mind for good analog. I agree that Pro does not equate to good sound quality. I'm thinking more of the people who master some of the best recordings available, not the pop Pro Tools stuff. One also must think about the fact that Pro gear is what all our music is made with. I avoided Pro gear for years but now I am a little more open to it.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Posts: 394
There are a couple of things
There are a couple of things I like about the Lynx AES16:
1) it allows multi-channel for those that want to do software crossover
2) The word-clock sync works and it's progress is very visible in the control panel - you know when it's synced
Apart from the good customer service that Lynx evidently provides.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
http://www.empiricalaudio.com
Posts: 394
"The Lynx jitter spec is 20
"The Lynx jitter spec is 20 ps."
The oscillator on the board maybe with a perfect power supply, but not the system. Also, jitter specs must include several measurements, P-P, RMS and others. Even these are insufficient IMO.
There is no way in the world that they can spec a clock that is powered from an unknown power supply, such as the PCI bus power in some computer.
Steve N.
http://www.empiricalaudio.com
Posts: 319
A couple more things
Is our niche market too small to support specific and optimized solutions for our needs? It seems that some the recommended hardware and software solutions are more than what we need in our quest for better music fidelity. It seems that I would only use a fraction of the capabilities of the Lynx cards or what seems to be coming from Sonic Studio. The need to strip down Windows or make-up simplified custom cables is additional examples.
I believe most of the present focus here seems two-channel stereo playback of digital files. These may be some of the best HW/SW solutions now but it seems that we are paying for only a fraction of what we will use and introducing a lot of complexity that probably have some performance penalties, maintenance or setup difficulties.
Firewire might be dying as an interface but using my MacBook Pro and an excellent FW DAC sure seems like a simple clean solution. I am still trying to learn about the Lynx cards, I2S, Off Ramp and Pace Car and trying to weigh the pros/cons of these solutions without spending a lot of money or being disappointed with the results.
Steve - please explain in lay terms your comments on the Lynx AES16:
1) it allows multi-channel for those that want to do software crossover
2) The word-clock sync works and it's progress is very visible in the control panel - you know when it's synced
Posts: 394
The Lynx is multi-channel
The Lynx is multi-channel and some of my customers are using four or six channels to drive systems with multiple amplifiers driving speakers with no crossovers. They drive the individual drivers, either 2-way or three-way systems. In order to get low jitter, they are using multiple Pace-Car reclockers that are synchronized to each other to deliver two or three stereo channels of digital signal to 2 or 3 DAC's. In order to get multiple-channels, they are using special crossover software on the computer.
The Pace-Car 2, when used in synchronous mode with the Lynx utilizes the word-clock output from the Pace-Car to drive the word-clock input of the Lynx card. The Lynx card then synchronizes its clock to the word-clock. This is what is shown in the Lynx Control Panel. A short clock cable is connected from Pace-Car 2 to Lynx. Then, the digital data from the Lynx is transmitted via the Lynx AES cable and temporarily stored in the memory of the Pace-Car and then clocked out using a local clock inside the Pace-Car 2 over S/PDIF, AES or I2S cable to the DAC of your choice. Three cables involved.
The clock inside the Pace-Car is superior to the Lynx clock, as is the power supply, internal cables and board design, so the output jitter from the Pace-Car 2 is much lower than the Lynx. Same data only lower jitter.
Steve N.
http://www.empiricalaudio.com
Posts: 338
rumours of my death have been greatly exagerrated...
I'm not sure that Firewire is 'dying', but rather - the mass-market is moving to USB.
Like you, I use Firewire to connect to my DAC - directly and simply. My DAC also supports Toslink (which I use via Apple TV connection), as well as S/PDIF (AES and coax), basically everything BUT USB.
The hysteria over death of Firewire is just that, in my opinion. For starters, Pro audio still uses Firewire to a significant extent, and as the Pros have been utilizing computer audio interfaces longer than 'audiophiles', I think they are more knowledgeable on this than, say, the mass-market electronics producers.
If you listened to all the recent articles you would think that Apple dropped Firewire, but they did not - they only dropped it on the mass-market MacBooks. They upgraded to Firewire 800 on the MB Pros, e.g.
I personally have a hard time understanding why audiophiles don't pay more attention to Firewire as the least complicated to implement digital audio interface.
S/PDIF, as I understand it, is the worst in theory - but somehow it became the de facto standard among audiophile companies. Makes no sense to me. The move of the mass-market to USB does make sense for computer interfaces.
UBS done right seems quote promising, I'd love to listen to Gordon's products.
I bought a Metric Halo ULN-2 at B&H - utilizing their liberal try-and-return policy, and haven't looked back. I think I'd be equally happy with Gordon's Brick, and certainly a Cosecant.
FWIW, I also agree on the extra functionality. I didn't buy the Metric Halo just as a DAC, but I think it's worth every penny of it's price as just a DAC, compared to Benchmark DACs and the like.
all for now,
clay
Posts: 65
I'm using a RME FireFace 400
I'm using a RME FireFace 400 firewire DAC from Windows. It is a well-respected pro audio device, capable of multiple channel 192/24 with excellent anti-jitter built in. The Fireface was recommended to me by some experienced members on this forum. I compared side-by-side to the Weiss Minerva (also firewire, also from a company well known in pro-audio circles) and although the Minerva was better, the FireFace stood its ground. So firewire is both well established and used by some of the latest and greatest DACs.
Death of firewire? I've heard nothing like that in PC world - isn't this a bit of a generalization of the Mac perspective? When all hardware is created by a single company, a single design decision may seem to change the world...
VincentH, Pro Audio and Headphone enthousiast. Currently using Vista + Foobar + WASAPI bitperfect --> FireWire --> RME FireFace 400 DAC --> Vovox unshielded balanced XLR interconnects --> Focal Twin 6Be active monitors + Focal Sub6 active sub; Grado RA 1 + Grado RS 1; Etymotic ER-4P.
Posts: 4267
Hi Guys - FireWire is
Hi Guys - FireWire is Apple's baby. When Apple drops FW400 on its newest product that is not a good sign in terms of longevity of the interface. Fortunately there will be ways around this for many years. The FW800 to FW400 adapter and an ExpressCard for FW400 are two examples. Since serial port adapters are still prevalent today I have a good feeling that FW400 will have an extended life through third party accessories.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Posts: 394
Firewire devices can be just
Firewire devices can be just as good as USB, but no manufacturer has implemented an async interface yet. The DiceII chip with JET jitter-lowering technology is good, but not great IMO. The Off-Ramp 3 beats it hands-down. I have had the latest Firewire design using the DiceII in my system about a week ago and I was not impressed. It had custom drivers that bypassed kmixer, but that didnt seem to help it.
The primary advantage of Firewire is for studios that must have 24/192 capability and multiple-device firewire connections.
In 2009, you will see USB interfaces that are both Async and support 24/192. This is one thing I am working on.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
http://www.empiricalaudio.com
Posts: 4267
"In 2009, you will see USB
"In 2009, you will see USB interfaces that are both Async and support 24/192. This is one thing I am working on."
This is going to be fabulous Steve.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile